Leaders. How was your Tango journey?

[opendoor]

I don’t think I read that. What signal are you sending through how and which arm you extend?

Very roughly: In the salón hold, the leader is closed on his right side, so his right arm goes first. But if I raise my left arm, I present my entire front, which invites to the parallel milonguero hold. I learned that from Sebastián Arce.

 

[Bailango]

Very roughly: In the salón hold, the leader is closed on his right side, so his right arm goes first. But if I raise my left arm, I present my entire front, which invites to the parallel milonguero hold. I learned that from Sebastián Arce.

It is not a universal code.

What according to you is the (difference between) salon hold and parallel milonguero hold. These too have no agreed definitions.

 

[opendoor]

..salon and ...milonguero hold.. have no agreed definitions.

Anyway... my wording has remained the same and is consistent since I've joined here. That's what I expected you to remember! Because we've been through that several times.

Salon hold:
-closed at the leader's right side,
-con luce at the leader's left side (aka > or v),
-right to left temple head position,
-independent axes,
-origin in barrios Almagro, Villa Urquiza.

Milonguero hold:
-parallel chest contact,
-apilado appearence (aka A) with or with only apparent lean,
-right to right temple head position,
-origin in barrios San Telmo, la Boca.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

You can't be 100% sure that they dance well, of course. I just meant that if you aren't certain you want that tanda, with that person, for sure . . . well, why invite them?

Oh, I see. It's hard to describe. Sometimes, if the music really speaks to you, it can be worth dancing with someone you're not entirely sure of. And, yes, that can backfire, but it can also lead to some amazing discoveries.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

I just know. I don't bother to watch the dancing.

No? You don't watch? That's interesting. I always watch the floor for a while to see who's out there and what they'are doing. Of course, this applies to those potential partners you don't know or have never seen before, or have never paid much attention to in a large crowd.

 

[Rabbit]

No? You don't watch? That's interesting.

Well, the auras you mentioned are still visible when they're not dancing.

 

[tangoing]

This seems to be a gray area where athletic and technical traits might be difficult to tell apart.

I share weight for real – I don't just affect the illusion of doing so. My usual dance posture has my partner and me on one shared axis, close up top and apart down below. The majority of my lead passes through my torso, and functions because the torso and both arms move as a single piece or frame. I do not give arm impulses separate from torso movement, and "volcada" is less a specific movement than the default state for all movements.

To dance like that, I need my partner to share an axis with me and have a frame like mine. This means they must direct the force of their weight horizontally toward me, and have tonus and presence in their arm on the open side. If we both do this, we have what in the world of aircraft is called "controlled instability": We teeter on the edge of falling (volcada) at all times, and the slightest inflection (lead) creates results almost instantly, which can be very fast and very large if desired.

Lots of tangueras trained in the same broad style as me by the same gang of teachers as mine who had the same group of masters dance this way. I'd say it's "usual" among tangueras in my age group in my city. I don't have to ask for it or "teach" it, because it's a baseline approach . . . I'd only have to speak up if I didn't want it.

However, there are also tangueras who have poor athletic qualities – bad balance, limited flexibility (especially at the upper body-lower body hinge), weak abdominal muscles, excessive or inadequate control over muscles in their arms and back, etc. – who collapse against me, or direct their weight vertically (downward) onto me, or actively push with the arm on the open side. That's uncomfortable, even for me.

I can immediately tell the difference between these things because one is how I like to dance while the other is not. But if you prefer not to share weight, and to dance on separate axes, then I can totally see how either could be disagreeable to you! Someone dancing my way vs. someone with poor athleticism are still completely different things physically, but would possibly feel the same way to you.

I guess the solution would be to watch people in a new place to determine what the standard style is there, and to pick the ones who dance like you do. As someone who just about never travels to dance, I'm fortunate in being able to invite most people I've seen around for about as long as I've been dancing, who number in the dozens and possibly the hundreds here.

Doesn’t that mean there’s certain movements you can’t do with this volcada embrace? Like colgadas, or even creating slight centrifugal forces in turns as an example.

I try to have a flexible embrace that can flow freely between close and open but generally with separate axises. Once in a while a follower will initiate a V embrace or the volcada/apilado embrace you’re talking about.

 

[Miradamiranda]

Teaching touchy-feely stuff first is like teaching a class full of future detectives how to have hunches and instincts.

To me mixing spirituality and mindfulness with teaching of tango dancing is utter nonsense.

I’m jumping in late on this topic about spirituality. There is however a good reason to tell people learning that the experience of a good tanda can give one the ILLUSION and FEELING of something magical, spiritual, telepathic or whatever, but it’s just that the technique of those involved is so subtle and the intention so clear from the leader’s side, and the follower is so present and in tune with the leader that she picks up on the slightest signal without needing to ‘be shouted at’. This can be used to motivate those learning to work on their technique.
Another aspect is explaining about the feeling of being on a high that can be experienced when all those feel-good hormones (oxytocin, dopamine, endorphins, seratonin) are raging after a particular good milonga. This is very special in tango and something else that those mindfulness junkies would be receptive towards. Another motivator.

On a different topic more recently in this thread:

No? You don't watch? That's interesting. I always watch the floor for a while to see who's out there and what they'are doing.

I actually don’t watch the floor for potential partners. I’m normally too busy dancing myself. I’m one of those lucky but also not so picky followers who dances a lot, I won’t decline a first dance with someone new, because my experience is I wouldn’t be able to judge if he’s any good from outside the embrace anyhow. I’ll most definitely decline a dancer I’ve had a not so good experience with, though, although I’ll often give him another chance. I don’t go by body type or level of attractiveness either. If a short guy asks me up, he is confident he can handle my height. Even though I value musicality very highly, I’ve also experienced that someone who looks like he doesn’t have good musicality, might actually have it, but the situation was getting in his way, for example if a follower didn’t understand HIS interpretation of the music.

 

[JournalInTime]

Doesn’t that mean there’s certain movements you can’t do with this volcada embrace? Like colgadas, or even creating slight centrifugal forces in turns as an example.

Not at all, because it's just a default state. When I need to, I can slide through the entire range of options. I just prefer to have a "resting position" that shares weight.

 

[pianistamediano]

I’m jumping in late on this topic about spirituality. There is however a good reason to tell people learning that the experience of a good tanda can give one the ILLUSION and FEELING of something magical, spiritual, telepathic or whatever, but it’s just that the technique of those involved is so subtle and the intention so clear from the leader’s side, and the follower is so present and in tune with the leader that she picks up on the slightest signal without needing to ‘be shouted at’. This can be used to motivate those learning to work on their technique.
Another aspect is explaining about the feeling of being on a high that can be experienced when all those feel-good hormones (oxytocin, dopamine, endorphins, seratonin) are raging after a particular good milonga. This is very special in tango and something else that those mindfulness junkies would be receptive towards. Another motivator.

Not going to talk further about the general spirituality and mindfulness bullshit that loves to misrepresent and cherry-pick aspects of cultures currently plaguing our world, but I like the wording of:

...the follower is so present and in tune with the leader that she picks up on the slightest signal without needing to ‘be shouted at’.

These days, I think the focus for followers has been gradually shifting away from actually following and towards developing their ability to do steps and technique independent of the leader. Personally, I blame this on people not being interested in the inherent history, culture, traditions, etc.; to them, tango is just a dance, nothing more. They learn it divorced from its original context, and they only learn the form; they just substitute the soul of tango for whatever they feel like doing. No tienen ninguna mugre.

More and more new/intermediate/inexperienced followers I dance with have better and better execution of movements, but I note that they need me to almost 'shout' at them to follow. I've worked very hard on making my lead subtle and nuanced, because anything more than a whisper is generally unneeded for the followers I prefer to dance with, and it irks me that I have to expend so much extra effort when they should already be working on their sensitivity and responsiveness.

I bet that a lot of followers would be all self-righteous and outraged if I said that a follower isn't good if she can't actually follow well, regardless of how good she is at doing adornos or steps. The same followers would applaud if I said that a leader is a bad leader if he can't lead followers well.

Without a follower, a leader is nothing; without a leader, a follower is nothing. Tango is para dos; go dance contemporary dance if you think you can be a good tango dancer by yourself.

 

[opendoor]

..have a flexible embrace that can flow freely between close and open but...

Basically, that's how I do it too. But for me there is a restriction. I follow overarching criteria that no one here on DF ever wanted to understand, be it due to a lack of flexibility, or, as in the case of JournalInTime, due to an understandable conscious decision.
When choosing my dance posture and style, I strictly follow the music. This has its origins in the golden age, when the dance styles of the barrios in BsA were still different. The styles had their own "house orchestras", so to speak. The best example is Cacho Dante, who later earned his money as a partner of Susana Miller with teaching milonguero style. But in the interview he emphasized that as a young man he only danced to Pugliese and in the tango de salón style. There has never been just one true tango. Tango has always been diverse (even if some people don't want to admit it).

 

[tangoing]

Basically, that's how I do it too. But for me there is a restriction. I follow overarching criteria that no one here on DF ever wanted to understand, be it due to a lack of flexibility, or, as in the case of JournalInTime, due to an understandable conscious decision.
When choosing my dance posture and style, I strictly follow the music. This has its origins in the golden age, when the dance styles of the barrios in BsA were still different. The styles had their own "house orchestras", so to speak. The best example is Cacho Dante, who later earned his money as a partner of Susana Miller with teaching milonguero style. But in the interview he emphasized that as a young man he only danced to Pugliese and in the tango de salón style. There has never been just one true tango. Tango has always been diverse (even if some people don't want to admit it).

I think it’s somewhat common to adjust the dance style to the music + floor space here.

One of my teachers who’s really against competition tango, says that even though it’s called tango de salon, there used to be many types of salon styles so that it’s a shame that “salon style” just refers to this one that everyone does now and there’s not really a true version since there used to be so many.

 

[Bailango]

When choosing my dance posture and style, I strictly follow the music.

You are free to chose what works best for you or you enjoy most. But…

This has its origins in the golden age, when the dance styles of the barrios in BsA were still different.

There is no need to give deference to this. I do not even see it connected to whatever music they danced to. It all comes down to habits. Habits are contagious and more so within a locale.

It happens today too. Salsa is easiest example. There is a distinct way a social dancer in NY dances salsa, compared to someone in Los Angeles, San Francisco, Paris, or London. I am not taking about different styles. I am talking within the same style (on2 or on1). Certain patterns are done more in one place. Certain music is played more in one place. That is locales develop their own dialect. It is not by design. It happens organically. One or two influencers can influence a whole community.

I recall a long time back having a discussion with a friend of mine. Who was vice president of most popular TV channel (before Internet) that set global trends. Her job was to research the social and cultural trends, identify them before they happened and that input was fed into channel’s programming. I asked her how do they research nascent trends yet to hit mainstream. Besides surveys and other usual stuff you can expect, she said they keep close tab on college campuses. Her team used to identify who were key influencers on each college campus. Engage them in what they were acting, choices they were making etc. She said this way they could pick up trends 6 months before people and media got consciously aware of trends.

Tango being a community place or a public square for a neighborhood, it is not surprising each neighborhood developed what we now say is its own style. These kind of styles specific to neighborhood also manifests itself in non-Tango social and non-western social dances.

For something like that to occur is so natural that it would be a wonder if it didn’t happen.

The styles had their own "house orchestras", so to speak. The best example is Cacho Dante, who later earned his money as a partner of Susana Miller with teaching milonguero style. But in the interview he emphasized that as a young man he only danced to Pugliese and in the tango de salón style. There has never been just one true tango. Tango has always been diverse (even if some people don't want to admit it).

That can be said about a lot of things. Generally there is never one true of anything. When people start believing one true way, we call it being religious. If anyone claims one true way, that should be a big red flag.

 

[Bailango]

I think it’s somewhat common to adjust the dance style to the music + floor space here.

One of my teachers who’s really against competition tango, says that even though it’s called tango de salon, there used to be many types of salon styles so that it’s a shame that “salon style” just refers to this one that everyone does now and there’s not really a true version since there used to be so many.

It drives me nuts when someone tries to say this is the salon style.

Whether salon or any other, I have found no consistent definition of a style if you ask 10 experts or knowledgeable people.

You can call it mundial style or mundial style of salon, only because that section of competition is called tango de salon. I don’t think that reference is expectation of what embrace and hold a competing pair will dance in. I do not pay any attention to mundial. I think as a competition and rightly so the primary focus is on technicality. You have to have good technique to be selected for mundial. I have no idea how they divide judging between technique and artistry. However is there any rule that prescribes dos and donts of embrace and hold for the mundial? I will find it incredulous if mundial rules hold that parallel embrace with shared axis is invalid and only embrace with both on their own axis is valid. Or that V hold is not eligible. Going beyond that do they any rule that says close embrace is mandatory?

 

[Bailango]

Basically, that's how I do it too. But for me there is a restriction. I follow overarching criteria that no one here on DF ever wanted to understand,

May be because while you have rationalized it in your mind, to rest of us it is not a rational criteria ?