Leaders. How was your Tango journey?

A pretty good summary of why it's pointless to use any of these labels. Ask 10 different dancers to define the styles and you'll end up with 12 different definitions of each.
Sorry, but your contribution shows how important research on this topic is. The 10 sources you mentioned are anything but credible or independent. They are tango teachers, students who are committed to tango teachers, self-employed tango practitioners, or even Argentinians. I would have expected a more balanced contribution from you!
 
They are tango teachers, students who are committed to tango teachers, self-employed tango practitioners, or even Argentinians
It makes no difference: there are no agreed definitions for any of these stylistic terms whether teacher or student, Argentine or Brit.

Honestly the only one of these terms where I think there is something halfway approaching a consensus definition is 'milonguero,' which I think most people would understand to mean:
- Dancing in close embrace
- Dancing within the couple's own space
- A high standard of floorcraft
- Expressing the music well (however simply)

But even there, I'm already anticipating disagreement ...
 
Sorry, but your contribution shows how important research on this topic is.
What’s there to exactly to research?

Let’s start with the first principles: what is a style, how do you define a style and what characteristics determine a style.

I doubt we or any group of independent experts can arrive at a common understanding of what makes a style.

Let’s take example from how you described it.
Salon hold:
-closed at the leader's right side,
-con luce at the leader's left side (aka > or v),
-right to left temple head position,
-independent axes,
-origin in barrios Almagro, Villa Urquiza.
So if the position is not right to left temple head position, it is no longer a salon hold. It is something different? What?

If all remains the same but instead of V, it is parallel upfront, what kind of hold is?

Aren’t all holds closed on the leader’s right side?

Atleast you are calling it a hold and not a style. Which is a more appropriate term. But should hold determine the style?


Milonguero hold:
-parallel chest contact,
-apilado appearence (aka A) with or with only apparent lean,
-right to right temple head position,
-origin in barrios San Telmo, la Boca.

What when it is a V contact with apilado? Pretty common.

There can be any number of combinations of a hold based on:

- parallel or V
- lean or no lean
- shared axis vs independent axis
- head position
- right arm position or close side (high, mid, low)
- distance/daylight in embrace (no distance, upper parts touching or pressed against each other to a little daylight, hence not touching)
- left arm hold or open side hold

Hence to define a style based on holds is largely restricting or even meaningless. Hence codifying a social dancie is taking interpretive and artistic freedom away from the dancers. It is a tradeoff.

Then what is a style. To me it is more like how you dance, step, and move. Less vocabulary, more walking, less rhythm in the steps. Or different style would be sane with more rhythm in the steps. Yet another style difference could be longer steps vs shorter steps. Then we can determine a style of someone’s dancing by their goto vocabulary. More circular or more linearized to keep moving forward in the Ronda vs staying in place. May be there are enough commonalities to define a style in that manner. It is possible that people dancing in the same place (neighborhood, milonga, town) start converging on these elements. Therefore what elements get emphasized or seen to be emphasized in your milongas are different than ones that I go to.

However in street and social dancing if the structure of dance is preserved, then individual styles prevail over any commonly defined style. When the structure is not preserved, then you get something like Neuvo style of dancing (which if we were to get really academic is stage style dancing modified to fit social dance floor). You could preserve the structure but change the music that you dance to it. Imagine traditional tango style dances to non-tango music. Pretty much what happened in the WCS. The structure didn’t change but they started dancing it to almost any music.

That’s if we were to define a style, only a few primary elements or characteristics should be used to define it. Most of these elements are physical - hold, how you move, etc. Then the question becomes does the way you interprete the music or not, be part of element that defines a style. Styles are always fluid. That makes an additional challenge since style is a function of time.

To me only two primary styles are that prevail in current social Tango. Traditional and Neuvo. They are distinct enough to define and recognize when absorbed. Incidently music choices also differ for each style. The rest is all individual styles within and really pointless to sub-categorize.
 
It makes no difference: there are no agreed definitions for any of these stylistic terms whether teacher or student, Argentine or Brit.

Agree. That’s a conclusion I reached a long time back. Like almost a decade back after hearing all definitions fly around.
Honestly the only one of these terms where I think there is something halfway approaching a consensus definition is 'milonguero,' which I think most people would understand to mean:
- Dancing in close embrace
- Dancing within the couple's own space
- A high standard of floorcraft

Sounds very much like what they want to see in the tango de pista section of mundial and how the mundial competitors dance. So it is a mundial style? :D

But even there, I'm already anticipating disagreement ...

Yep. I disagree :D
 
It makes no difference: there are no agreed definitions for any of these stylistic terms whether teacher or student, Argentine or Brit.

Honestly the only one of these terms where I think there is something halfway approaching a consensus definition is 'milonguero,' which I think most people would understand to mean:
- Dancing in close embrace
- Dancing within the couple's own space
- A high standard of floorcraft
- Expressing the music well (however simply)

But even there, I'm already anticipating disagreement ...
I may define it even more with shorter steps, more use of choppier movements like ocho cortados and rebounds, potentially more use of front crosses (vs front ochos), and in general more simple vocabulary of movements.
 
I may define it even more with shorter steps, more use of choppier movements like ocho cortados and rebounds, potentially more use of front crosses (vs front ochos), and in general more simple vocabulary of movements.
I'd personally tend to agree (though in my view you can dance milonguero style with a giant walk if the floor space permits it).
 
I may define it even more with shorter steps, more use of choppier movements like ocho cortados and rebounds, potentially more use of front crosses (vs front ochos), and in general more simple vocabulary of movements.

I would define milonguero as emphasizing having a shared axis and i see the vocabulary mostly as a consequence of this choice in bodymechanics. This gets complicated because everybody also uses some elements of "fluid embrace"/switching styles. When somebody talks about a piece of vocabulary requiring a change of embrace they are often switching biomechanics for a bit, and in a way they are also switching their style.
I think the easiest way to figure out what "style" a follower is mostly at home with is to see how they reorient themselves when something goes wrong with the geometry of the couple - either they look for the leaders axis (milonguero), establish their own independent axis (nuevo), or look for the embrace/the leaders right arm (salon).
 
I would define milonguero as emphasizing having a shared axis and i see the vocabulary mostly as a consequence of this choice in bodymechanics. This gets complicated because everybody also uses some elements of "fluid embrace"/switching styles. When somebody talks about a piece of vocabulary requiring a change of embrace they are often switching biomechanics for a bit, and in a way they are also switching their style.
I think the easiest way to figure out what "style" a follower is mostly at home with is to see how they reorient themselves when something goes wrong with the geometry of the couple - either they look for the leaders axis (milonguero), establish their own independent axis (nuevo), or look for the embrace/the leaders right arm (salon).
I don’t think a shared axis is a requirement for milonguero at all, nor would i consider independent axis nuevo.
 
Exactly, good dancers only fake the shared axis, don't you know my motto: "Lean is an illusion".

So this is a bit out there, but it has helped me when trying to work with/debug vocabulary: I am not talking about shared weight, but i am talking about the shared axis - i could also call it the couples axis? When we are dancing as a couple there are three axes: Leaders axis, shared axis, followers axis. How the shared axis is created is somewhat of a different issue - lean works, using the embrace works. One of the easiest exercises to play with this are rockstep turns - a rockstep turn can be around the leaders axis, the followers axis, or the shared axis of the couple, and if we are subtle enough we can change where the center is while turning. Some vocabulary works by playing with the shared axis, some vocabulary is about the follower moving in relationship to the leaders axis, and some of the vocabulary is playing with the relationship between the two axes with each other). So i tend to think of a volcada as a two axis move - it is about the follower going off axis and the leader staying on axis. We can dance pretty much the same thing as a shared axis move, but then we are doing a front cross / milonguero ocho.

As a sidenote: One of the aspects of the "real" vs. "fake" lean discussions that is always a bit confusing to me is why the good dancers who do not lean are trying to create the illusion of a lean? But why is the looking like a bad dancer who leans preferable to looking like a good dancer who doesn't lean? I dance at least half of my dances at milongas with no lean - counterbalanced close embrace requires specific technique, and a lot of followers prefer not to dance that way. So while i prefer dancing with a lean i don't see the point of creating the illusion of a lean when i am not actually leaning.
 
I don’t think a shared axis is a requirement for milonguero at all, nor would i consider independent axis nuevo.
I agree.

The way salon “style” was explained to me when I was first exposed to it was close embrace, no daylight, independent axis. Prior to that for almost a decade I was dancing close embrace, no daylight, lean-in, shared axis.

Being able to dance both and dancing almost the independent axis for a decade, I get a feeling that followers prefer that. It also makes dancing with more types of followers possible. It is also what 80% to 90% of the pista looks like now (close embrace, no daylight to about a couple of inches of day light). I remember in the 2000s lean-in share axis dominated the pista. Then came the “salon” craze or preferences changed.
 
Exactly, good dancers only fake the shared axis, don't you know my motto: "Lean is an illusion".
Lean is an illusion when dancing on independent axis. But you can also dance shared axis. It is what the leader and the follower negotiate when the dance starts. Sometimes when dancing to could switch between the two. That only happens with very few partners and they are all good dancers. There are some followers who just expect a shared axis as default normal way for dancing
 
So this is a bit out there, but it has helped me when trying to work with/debug vocabulary: I am not talking about shared weight, but i am talking about the shared axis - i could also call it the couples axis? When we are dancing as a couple there are three axes: Leaders axis, shared axis, followers axis. How the shared axis is created is somewhat of a different issue - lean works, using the embrace works. One of the easiest exercises to play with this are rockstep turns - a rockstep turn can be around the leaders axis, the followers axis, or the shared axis of the couple, and if we are subtle enough we can change where the center is while turning. Some vocabulary works by playing with the shared axis, some vocabulary is about the follower moving in relationship to the leaders axis, and some of the vocabulary is playing with the relationship between the two axes with each other).
Yes! And the way you describe the rockstar turn (which I use commonly) gives you three ways to do it. The feel of each is different and depending on where I am in the music, how tight or lose space is around me, I will subconsciously select one of the three ways. May be it is a muscle memory now. But the follower feels each differently. The feel of each is different. Therefore though you are doing the same step, it is three different feel. It is like three different moves. How I used the axis to turned around actually makes it more than three. This to me is beauty of Tango dancing. There are so many subtleties that only a careful eye can discern or sometimes not at all, outside looking in. Tango is not formulaic for this very reason. And why students think they are getting contradictory information or instructions.
As a sidenote: One of the aspects of the "real" vs. "fake" lean discussions that is always a bit confusing to me is why the good dancers who do not lean are trying to create the illusion of a lean?
I don’t think good dancers are trying to create an illusion. No one when dancing is thinking of creating an illusion for outsiders looking at them. Some are taught to be forwarded weighted on their feet. That can create the illusion. However they are not doing it to create any illusion. They are being forward weighted because that is how they were taught and it become a habit for them to dance that way.

Whether I am forward weighted or not really depends. My normal way is not to be forward weighted. In the middle of dance I could switch to being forward weighted.

But why is the looking like a bad dancer who leans preferable to looking like a good dancer who doesn't lean?
Good posture is a separate issue. You could look good in either way if your posture is good. You could look like a bad dancer in either way if your posture is bad.

I dance at least half of my dances at milongas with no lean - counterbalanced close embrace requires specific technique, and a lot of followers prefer not to dance that way. So while i prefer dancing with a lean i don't see the point of creating the illusion of a lean when i am not actually leaning.
Agree. Actually the point is not at all to create any illusion. The point is to be in the embrace and dance. If that creates an illusion, that’s the unintended consequence.
 

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