Leaders. How was your Tango journey?

[Bailango]

I like the wording of:

...the follower is so present and in tune with the leader that she picks up on the slightest signal without needing to ‘be shouted at’.

Me too. But to me this is what good dancers do. It is what good dancing is. Mixing that with some metaphysical and spiritual gobbledygook is utter nonsense. Some people who are into spirituality and mindfulness have this fascination where everything looks like a nail to their hammer. I also find it obnoxious. If they are doing some spiritual or mindfulness practice and say ohh tango is a way to add to this, I have no problem. But when they take tango and say oh let’s bring spirituality and mindfulness into it so your tango journey becomes blah blah blah, that I think is like being evangelists. Wrong type of evangelists.

These days, I think the focus for followers has been gradually shifting away from actually following and towards developing their ability to do steps and technique independent of the leader.

Honestly this is not a problem I have experienced so far in Tango. Whatever that is hasn’t reached this side yet.

Personally, I blame this on people not being interested in the inherent history, culture, traditions, etc.; to them, tango is just a dance, nothing more.

That’s 98% of tango dancers.

They learn it divorced from its original context, and they only learn the form; they just substitute the soul of tango for whatever they feel like doing. No tienen ninguna mugre.

This is not unique to tango. People not getting the soul of whatever that is they are practicing from sword making to architecture, is why mediocrity prevails all around us.

More and more new/intermediate/inexperienced followers I dance with have better and better execution of movements, but I note that they need me to almost 'shout' at them to follow.

I have found this to be skills issue. But you are saying they have skills and you still need to shout. Again haven’t experienced that yet. Hope not to.

I've worked very hard on making my lead subtle and nuanced, because anything more than a whisper is generally unneeded for the followers I prefer to dance with, and it irks me that I have to expend so much extra effort when they should already be working on their sensitivity and responsiveness.

I narrated it once before. I was in a class. A follower was unable to execute or execute it in timely fashion. So she called the teacher. Teacher asks me to lead. Then she watches the follower follow me. Then she tells follower, there is nothing wrong with his lead. His lead is subtle but very clear. That’s the way he dances. That was 8 or 9 years back. My prefered follower is someone who can follow subtle leading. Over years I have also got better at leading more followers while being subtle in my leading.

This is one reason I don’t like performances. Everything in it is too loud for my taste.

I bet that a lot of followers would be all self-righteous and outraged if I said that a follower isn't good if she can't actually follow well, regardless of how good she is at doing adornos or steps.

Being good at adorn and steps is not sufficient to be a good at following role. Being able to follow well is a necessary condition to be a good dancer.

 

[TTanguero]

Going beyond that do they any rule that says close embrace is mandatory?

Here's what the rule says on this:

"Once formed, the couple must not separate while the music is playing. For the position to be considered correct, the body of one of the members of the couple must be contained at all the time by the arm of the other. It is understood that in certain figures this may be flexible, but not throughout the whole duration of the dance. All movements must be made within the space allowed by the couple’s embrace, so as not to get in the way of the other couples dancing. The leader may invite the follower to walk and/or turn to their right or left, without taking steps backwards on the dance floor."

 

[Bailango]

Here's what the rule says on this:

"Once formed, the couple must not separate while the music is playing. For the position to be considered correct, the body of one of the members of the couple must be contained at all the time by the arm of the other. It is understood that in certain figures this may be flexible, but not throughout the whole duration of the dance. All movements must be made within the space allowed by the couple’s embrace, so as not to get in the way of the other couples dancing. The leader may invite the follower to walk and/or turn to their right or left, without taking steps backwards on the dance floor."

Thanks fairly sensible. It is to avoid couples indulging in some showy stuff (they have different category for that) and changing the character of the dance itself.

 

[pianistamediano]

One of my teachers who’s really against competition tango, says that even though it’s called tango de salon, there used to be many types of salon styles so that it’s a shame that “salon style” just refers to this one that everyone does now and there’s not really a true version since there used to be so many.

Terminology correction here: that category used to be tango de salón, but now it is tango de pista. IIRC, tango de salón is a wide umbrella term used to describe any style of dancing in the salons of Buenos Aires, which we can easily extrapolate to today. I use it to describe the way I dance; way easier than appealing to more specific terms like Susana Miller's marketing term milonguero or Villa Urquiza or whatever. I personally distinguish it from salon tango (salon style), which is whatever most people think is Villa Urquiza these days.

 

[opendoor]

...tango de salón.. now is.. tango de pista..

Tango de pista theoretically also includes the milonguero style. However, since the name change, at least in my opinion, there has not been a winning couple that has won with this style. The first ten years of the Mundial de Tango were firmly in the hands of the Villa Urquiza style. But meanwhile I have lost interest in this competition.

 

[pianistamediano]

Tango de pista theoretically also includes the milonguero style. However, since the name change, at least in my opinion, there has not been a winning couple that has won with this style. The first ten years of the Mundial de Tango were firmly in the hands of the Villa Urquiza style. But meanwhile I have lost interest in this competition.

Like the judges would even allow a milonguero purist to get past the preliminaries! The Mundial style is utterly devoid of individuality. No wonder it appeals to East Asian dancers — they've gone crazy over competitions.

 

[opendoor]

One of my teachers who’s really against competition tango, says that even though it’s called tango de salon, there used to be many types of salon styles so that it’s a shame that “salon style” just refers to this one that everyone does now...

Well, there weren't that many different estilos de salón. The only really substantial alternative to Carlos and Rosa Pérez (aka new Villa Urquiza style) was Orlando Paiva. But he had his background in Rosario and therefore didn't set his own style. Oh yes, Osvaldo and Coca Caterey developed their very own estilo de salón, which is characterized by slowness. And I bet your said teacher still can't name names.

 

[Bailango]

Terminology correction here: that category used to be tango de salón, but now it is tango de pista. IIRC, tango de salón is a wide umbrella term used to describe any style of dancing in the salons of Buenos Aires,

Yes that is how I interpreted the label tango de salón - tango as danced in the salon (another word for social dancing?) as opposed to on the stage.

 

[Bailango]

Is there a YouTube video displaying, may be even as a caricature, all these myriad styles that tango dancers keep bandying about?

 

[Rabbit]

Thanks fairly sensible. It is to avoid couples indulging in some showy stuff (they have different category for that) and changing the character of the dance itself.

Honestly they've changed competition tango into a generic dancesport with no character and minimal talent anyway

 

[tangoing]

Well, there weren't that many different estilos de salón. The only really substantial alternative to Carlos and Rosa Pérez (aka new Villa Urquiza style) was Orlando Paiva. But he had his background in Rosario and therefore didn't set his own style. Oh yes, Osvaldo and Coca Caterey developed their very own estilo de salón, which is characterized by slowness. And I bet your said teacher still can't name names.

I bet she could...she danced for 35+ years with a lot of time in the 90s in BA, although she may disagree with the premise of the question that a style of salon must be named to be legitimized

 

[tangoing]

I narrated it once before. I was in a class. A follower was unable to execute or execute it in timely fashion. So she called the teacher. Teacher asks me to lead. Then she watches the follower follow me. Then she tells follower, there is nothing wrong with his lead. His lead is subtle but very clear. That’s the way he dances. That was 8 or 9 years back. My prefered follower is someone who can follow subtle leading. Over years I have also got better at leading more followers while being subtle in my leading.

This has happened to me a number of times during my first 2 years of tango and it was oddly satisfying. Although there's probably an argument to be made that the lead should adjust to the partner's sensitivity, some followers I can lead very subtly, whereas others (notably new male followers) I sorta have to crank up the force necessary for them to understand the lead.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

Here's what the rule says on this:

"Once formed, the couple must not separate while the music is playing. For the position to be considered correct, the body of one of the members of the couple must be contained at all the time by the arm of the other. It is understood that in certain figures this may be flexible, but not throughout the whole duration of the dance. All movements must be made within the space allowed by the couple’s embrace, so as not to get in the way of the other couples dancing. The leader may invite the follower to walk and/or turn to their right or left, without taking steps backwards on the dance floor."

What is this from?

 

[TTanguero]

What is this from?

https://www.metrotangossd.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/03/2024-RULES-UFFICIAL-PRELIMINARY-ITALY-ANNEX-1-ENGL.pdf

 

[TTanguero]

IIRC, tango de salón is a wide umbrella term used to describe any style of dancing in the salons of Buenos Aires, which we can easily extrapolate to today. I use it to describe the way I dance; way easier than appealing to more specific terms like Susana Miller's marketing term milonguero or Villa Urquiza or whatever. I personally distinguish it from salon tango (salon style), which is whatever most people think is Villa Urquiza these days.

A pretty good summary of why it's pointless to use any of these labels. Ask 10 different dancers to define the styles and you'll end up with 12 different definitions of each.