Leaders. How was your Tango journey?

[Bailango]

Btw, a big part of the reason neither bachata, zouk, nor Kizomba interested me was the music that I couldn’t care less about.

True. For the generation that started with salsa as their first dance, the music in all three dances is a major issue.

Bachata music after a while feels repetitive. You can bear may be an hour of bachata dancing at most. That’s being generous.

Zouk and Kizomba sound too flat and repetitive. It is hard to bear them for more than 15 minutes.

Sensual music is mostly remix of pop music/electro is with some bachata rhythm by the DJs.

For dancers who start with zouk, sensual, or kizomba as their first dance will have different take on the music. But majority or ninety percent the music is like some background noise. It doesn’t matter. All three - Kizomba, sensual, and zouk dancers claim “connection” as primary motivation for why they dance each. The “connection” they refer to is very shallow concept and mainly derived from the physical proximity with the partner.

 

[Bailango]

My experience with zouk started and ended in 2009 when I was living in Australia.

It was around 2008 and 2009 that zouk started becoming popular. Yes Australia was one of the first places for that and some instructors based there started promoting it in Europe and the USA. It become more popular relatively in Europe than in the USA. It has always been very small community compared to Kizomba and Sensual. The latter two took Europe by force over the next decade and continue to be popular. Kizomba has now divided itself into several sub-categories like urban kizz, traditional kizz, traxxo, taraxina, etc. Not sure about the spellings.

Brazilian zouk in Brazil is danced differently than the zouk that spread worldwide.

It’s not that us 40+ don’t like sensual moves, we just don’t care for the type of sensual bachata. I can do some mean body rolls in the context of salsa.

It is not only the body rolls, but contorting yourself in various different ways. Most salsa dancers can do body rolls. Esp those who learnt it in 90s and 2000:

In sensual it is hard for women that are 40+ for whom it is the first time they are partner dancing. The best analogy I can give is grinding. The teens and youngsters use to find grinding when dancing as fun. I doubt more adults past certain age really cared about grinding.

In zouk (from which sensual borrowed), the amount of body contortion is worse. Either you have to have background that allows physical flexibility to be able to shape your body or your body is naturally flexible. Not many 40+ entering partner dancing for the first time have that.

 

[Bailango]

My wording is the other way around. I need the qualifier "dominicana" to designate the authentic version.

That’s a very European thing which we don’t find or use in the USA. Salsa Cubana, Salsa Linea, Bachata Dominicana, etc. Here it is Casino, Cuban salsa. NY style, on2, LA style, on1, Bachata etc.

In the USA when bachata first started getting popular it was very simple side to side close hold dance. No one taught it. You saw others do it and copy it. Then some salsa instructors started forming bachata performance teams. It gave them additional students. Bachata performance choreographies borrowed moves from salsa and fit it to the rhythm of bachata music. That’s how moves got introduced into the bachata dancing.

Then some instructors started emphasizing on independent footwork to the fast bachata rhythm. This in the USA started getting called as Dominican Bachata.

While in DR itself the bachata dancing was simple and sprinkled with footwork depending on the music. When instructors in the USA claimed they were teaching “authentic” bachata as danced in DR, many sneered.

Most dancers in the USA still dance bachata as simple side to side with may be a few turns. Some who learnt footwork or can do it mostly came from salsa background at that time. They learnt Dominican bachata footwork at classes and workshops.

Later sensual in Europe took a whole different path. Sensual is a learnt dance. It appeals to many youngsters who find salsa difficult.

Here, zouk was an absolutely new creation without substantial contact with the brazilian or lusitanian communities.

Zouk started getting popular in Europe around 2007/8. It wasn’t led by Brazilians and differed from Brazilian zouk.

In the USA hardly any social dancers came to zouk, kizomba or bachata from ballroom world. Those dances were poaching dancers from the salsa scene. Some salsa studios and instructors started offering these as a way to increase their students numbers (and hence make more money). This all started in late 2000s. They also started attracting a lot of first timers to the partner dancing. Salsa was and is still huge in the USA. It is also fragmented between by various styles, learnt and vernacular dancers.

There's a long-established kizomba scene among angolese immigrants in my city. They stayed among themselves. However, many local followers who failed in ballroom, salsa or other partner dances find refuge in the kizomba scene.

Kizomba in Europe is now its own scene. Mainly centered around Paris. The women love it. There are 3 women for every one man in Kizomba out there. People will dance with each other for 30 minutes, an hour or two hours without changing partners. Minimum 15-20 minutes is the norm. I have noticed a certain type of people get attracted to the Kizomba scene (not same as dancing Kizomba).

What you didn't mention is that forró is currently taking off.

It has tried to take off multiple times. Yet never reached the critical mass or escape velocity.

I am no longer plugged into various different dance scenes.

 

[Rabbit]

But majority or ninety percent the music is like some background noise. It doesn’t matter.

I wouldn't say tango is any better. Most people are following the beat and nothing else.

Anyway all dances have incorporated influences from other styles nowadays just because there are plenty of multidisciplinary dancers around, and they tend to be more skilled than people who dance only one style.

 

[opendoor]

..am no longer plugged into various different dance scenes.

Thank you for your detailed answers and firsthand information. Even though this thread was originally intended to reflect the personal dance curriculum, I think that dances themselves also kind of evolved and emancipated almost like people.

..all dances have incorporated influences from other styles..

Both milonga and bachata have the same Cuban father. The differences stem from their mothers, who lived in different ports.

..multidisciplinary dancers ..tend to be more skilled than people who dance only one style.

I totally agree!

 

[Miradamiranda]

Both milonga and bachata have the same Cuban father.

True.
Contradanza / Habanera -> Danzon -> Bolero -> Bachata

Habanera mixed with Polka mixed with Candombe -> Milonga

A simplified version. Put me in front of a white board and I’d draw a rudimentary map of the Atlantic Ocean and I’d fill it with arrows going this way and that. And you’d have a hard time stopping me. So I better stop before I begin…

 

[arrowofsky]

I got some bachata lessons when I moved to a rural city in Türkiye since there was no Tango lessons at that place. Moreover, I have gone to their nights, mostly for watching or chilling. Hence, I got a few words in here, too:
-Below 40 years old is a sociological thing I guess, not dance-specific. Here >40 yo also come to these dances a lot, even for sensual. A hidden assumption of below 40 people with their insatiable sensual touch desire does not feel correlated with the dancer profile. People quite excited or sensitive about touch, feel uncomfortable in such places, and if they do come, only dance with a single same person for years.
-Bachata music being unbearable at most after 1 hour may be a real thing, but their nights are almost always combined with Salsa and Kizomba or something similar, sort of our Tandas with Tango, Tango Vals, and Milonga interspersed. Hence, you don't get so bored of anything. Even Bachata course trainers teach Salsa moves, too, most of the time.
-As for "visually unsatisfactory view" of sensual or not sensual bachata, it may be just a bad luck. There are so good videos online visually AND aesthetically appealing.
-When I hear movement quality, English or Vienna Waltz, or Ballet come to my mind. Tango has stance, hold, embrace, and anatomy-originated instructions, but specific figures quality execution is not its top character imo. Indeed, the tanguero/ra who I love to watch has always a significant ballet experience.

Personally, I did not advance in Bachata as I did not really like its dynamics. First, it is not like Tango where you dance with other couples together, but solely with your partner in a very limited part of the floor. Second, I felt it is so constrained to the choreographies. Tango music also constraints the figures, speed and movement, but there is always a way to interpret in more than one way. Last but not least, you don't get a strong connection without the close embrace of Tango. You can have more physical contacts in sensual bachata but they are just physical.

 

[Paja]

One post from Opendoor, mentioned bachata. And our Tango journey is completelly SIN RUMBO )
My biggest issue with TA, Bachata Sensual, Kizomba and other poppular dances is misunderstanding of newcommers what is show and what is social dancing. They are checking YT videos of their favourites and then demanding from lectors to teach them crazy things. Even worse is fact, that Show must go on.. (thank you Freddie) so they are inventing more complicated, acrobatics, unhealthy figures to beat their rivals. And people are eager to know how to do such extraordinary things.

 

[opendoor]

..misunderstanding of newcommers what is ..

But this is your fault. And I'm responsible for it too. What I'm saying is, the newcomers, the dance teachers, and the media aren't responsible for this. In many parts of the world, social dance no longer has a "setting in life." We can no longer ring our neighbors' doorbells and dance with them. If they dance at all, it's probably in another dance community with different dances. The incentive to learn a dance today comes from outside; the dance student has never seen the dance practiced in real life with their grandparents, parents, or neighbors.

I know it differently: In the town where I grew up, all secondary school students took the basic "ten dances" course at the local BR dance school. This meant that everyone in town knew what dance skills they could expect from their fellow citizens. In the town I later moved to, that wasn't the case. There, only students from wealthy or privileged families took the "ten dances." And this is a worldwide phenomenon: in BsAs, there are more bachateros than tango dancers. In the Dominican Republic, more people dance LA salsa than bachata. In Cuba, they dance Regaetton, not Casino. Is Musette still danced in Paris, in Athens Rembettico, in Budapest Csárdás, or Mazurka in Warsaw? Even the Viennese waltz became a dance of the elite in Vienna.

 

[Paja]

But this is your fault.

My fault is to be so stuborn to dance TA in middle of region famous with special folk dances. One of them , called Slovacky Verbunk even writen in UNESCO since 2005, even longer as TA is
In Czech Republic, every basic school and high school for second time, are organizing courses of "ten dances". But students forget all after their performance on graduation party. In best case they remember Polka. During winter time is here ball season, still quite popular events, not only for dancers, lot of people are visiting balls just to have some drinks and meet with friends. There is live band playing Polka, Waltz (Vienner), Fox, Jive and famous Disco songs. Often is there performance of ballet school, latino dance school, or ballroom dance school. Owners of schools are advertising and recruiting new dancers there.

 

[opendoor]

Of course, it's kind of elitist to choose tango. But it's also just a hobby like any other, and thus socially segregating. But what specifically appealed to you about tango? What attracted you? What images did you conjure up? For me, it was Carlos Gavito and Pablo Verón, looking down at me from advertising columns in the last century. Couples in entwined poses on CD covers also impressed me. In 2005, I threw away all my CDs, but still I have the images on the covers in my mind.

 

[Paja]

In 2005 we started to visit balroom dance lessons for adults, organized in our city. After two years we were quite good in repeating of several figures in each dance and for me it was repetitive routine. Of course it was my wife to start and keep this activity. Before that I dance Polka twice a year.
In 2008 there was band from Prague with quite famous singers to play Astor Piazolla in my city. My wife buyed tickets, I had no clue who is Astor Piazolla and Tango was not my favourite ballroom dance. I seen no reason to visit this performance. And it was really boring for me, singers were old, music strange (Oblivion is not my cup of tea ...), nobody dancing. When they finished, they just offered to audience single one Tango dance - there was violinist with his partner, shinning couple and they danced Libertango (I know such a cliche it sounds like). I was amazed, this dance style I never seen. She was like flying around him, doing unbeliavable and impossible figures and such music, wow! This minute I decided, this is a dance I want to learn. This was very beginning of my Tango journey.

 

[opendoor]

..I know such a cliche it sounds like). I was amazed, this dance style I never seen. She was like flying around him, doing unbeliavable and impossible figures and ..

So, brother, it also has been the stage variant that attracted you!!

 

[Miradamiranda]

there was band from Prague with quite famous singers to play Astor Piazolla in my city.

My observation is that there’s something intangible about Czech music culture that goes particularly well with the soul of tango music. A couple of years ago I saw two days in a row a classical concert with mostly Czech music, and a tango group performing in a park in Prague, which made me draw this conclusion. Also, I find the tango dancers I’ve met and observed there, of all styles, were excellent. (My favorite small marathon that I go to almost every year is in Teplice.)

has been the stage variant that attracted you

I don’t think there’s anything wrong with using flashy cool moves to attract newcomers. They will know from the beginning that there’s a lot of technical stuff to practice before they become good dancers. Then, after a while it usually dawns on these people that there’s so much more depth to it than the flashy moves, and that the technical stuff to work on is more subtle. They’ll already be of the mindset that it’s a challenge that gives rewards.
If instead, newcomers watching non-flashy tango might think ‘oh how hard can that be’ hugging and shifting weight, then they might not have the mindset of working on all those subtle technical things.

 

[Paja]

So, brother, it also has been the stage variant that attracted you!!

Definitelly it was stage performance and this is a reason whay performers are doing such show - to attaract people. I think only insiders can admire such things like how fluently is ronda moving in crowded milonga