Learning Leading from Patterns/Sequences

[mkjohnson]

Gssh - "My favourite example for that is ganchos - to do a gancho one should have perfected the exact placement of the followers steps, continuous connection through turns by dissocation, and non-inertia and complete relaxed hips and legs of the follower. I.e. once ochos and giros are completely understood, ganchos easy."

I know I'm diving in in the middle to mention only one point - but thank you for that, Gssh. I've been trying to figure out how to say that for about a week.

 

[ant]

Even in the OP, there should have been a step 7 IMO, which is to take the pattern apart, keep the bits that you like, adapt them to become part of your own dance, and experiment when various ways to get into different bits of the pattern, along with different ways to come out of the various bits.

I agree.

But I would prefer a more formal approach to be taken by the teacher in order to show that the sequence being used is a means to an end and not the end in itself.

The teacher should clearly distinguish between the core technique/step(s)within the sequence and what is the entry and exit from the core step.

I also think as part of the class (and subsequent class(es) when appropriate) the teacher should give exercises that will help pupils improve their ability of the core technique being featured and give at least two other entries and exits to the core step than that included in the original sequence and encourage the pupils to think of their own entries and exits.

In addition I would add a step 8. Because whatever is being taught this should be related to music, its appropriateness to different types of music and how you could and should adapt the sequence to different types of music.

And if there is any change of directionwith in the sequence, then the move in relation to the Line of Dance should also be considered.

 

[salthepal]

The problem with teaching patterns and sequences is that teachers and students waste so much time trying to remember the steps, where to step, which direction, etc. that it becomes awfully boring.

The important part of dancing tango is to learn to connect to the music (not a lot of teachers do that) and connect with your partner (i.e. figure out to lead from the body -as JanTango noted). I didn't get the deceptively simple concepts of traspies, rebounds and small weight changes until way too late, simply because no one ever ever explained to me how simple it is to lead these things if you focus on the follower and move her body by grounding, suspending and torquing very subtly.

I do teach (volunteer, in our local college community), and I don't teach sequences. I have seen pretty good results from student (leaders AND followers) becasue I focus on the deceptively simple things, like connection, balance, grounding, and ABOVE ALL the music!!! No crappy electrotango in my class or when I DJ; only the best of the golden age!

 

[Dave Bailey]

The problem with teaching patterns and sequences is that teachers and students waste so much time trying to remember the steps, where to step, which direction, etc. that it becomes awfully boring.

Conversely, the problem with never teaching a pattern is that people never get an idea of how technique relates to movements in the real world.

If a pattern is driven by a technique, is used as an example of that technique, and if the teacher explicitly states that this is an example, I think patterns are OK as teaching aids.

The important part of dancing tango is to learn to connect to the music (not a lot of teachers do that) and connect with your partner (i.e. figure out to lead from the body -as JanTango noted). I didn't get the deceptively simple concepts of traspies, rebounds and small weight changes until way too late, simply because no one ever ever explained to me how simple it is to lead these things if you focus on the follower and move her body by grounding, suspending and torquing very subtly.

I agree.

I do teach (volunteer, in our local college community), and I don't teach sequences. I have seen pretty good results from student (leaders AND followers) becasue I focus on the deceptively simple things, like connection, balance, grounding, and ABOVE ALL the music!!!

Personally I focus on the leading and following. If you can't lead or follow clearly, nothing else matters.

No crappy electrotango in my class or when I DJ; only the best of the golden age!

Perhaps a little dogmatic there...

 

[UKDancer]

No crappy electrotango in my class or when I DJ; only the best of the golden age!

I avoid crappy electrotango too, but of course, it isn't all crappy. I would be bored silly if I never danced to anything recorded after the upheavals of 1955 brought a rather sudden end to the Golden Age, and to lump everything together, in order to dismiss it, is rather sweeping?

 

[Dave Bailey]

I avoid crappy electrotango too, but of course, it isn't all crappy.

As the saying goes "Ninety percent of everything is crap". That includes electrotango, traditional tango, you name it. In fact, with salsa music, I'd say it's more like 95%; admittedly, the other 5% is fantastic...

I would be bored silly if I never danced to anything recorded after the upheavals of 1955 brought a rather sudden end to the Golden Age, and to lump everything together, in order to dismiss it, is rather sweeping?

Indeed.

I played Apocalypta's "Nothing Else Matters" the Sunday before last. Ricardo Oria loved it, and danced to it. If it's good enough for him...

 

[bordertangoman]

As the saying goes "Ninety percent of everything is crap". That includes electrotango, traditional tango, you name it. In fact, with salsa music, I'd say it's more like 95%; admittedly, the other 5% is fantastic...


Indeed.

I played Apocalypta's "Nothing Else Matters" the Sunday before last. Ricardo Oria loved it, and danced to it. If it's good enough for him...

do you have photographic evidence?

I tangoed to Kashmir on sunday..absoltuley brilliant all 8 minutes of it.

saves stopping between songs in a tanda.

 

[JohnEm]

I played Apocalypta's "Nothing Else Matters" the Sunday before last. Ricardo Oria loved it, and danced to it. If it's good enough for him...

Nothing Else Matters when you're dancing to Apocalyptica's
"Nothing Else Matters" - it would take an apocalypse to stop me.

So it was good enough for me too, Not That It Matters.
No pics of Ricardo that I'm aware of but plenty of witnesses.
Not that I noticed he was on the floor at the time.

DB of course had nothing to do but watch,
being as he was sat in the DJ booth.

 

[Dave Bailey]

do you have photographic evidence?

Darn, I knew I'd forgotten something.

The funny thing was that he first came bounding up to the DJ bit and asked what was next, I said in a small voice "errr.... this" and showed him; his response was "Great! I love Metallica". :smile:

I tangoed to Kashmir on sunday.

Blimey, that's a long way to go...

DB of course had nothing to do but watch,
being as he was sat in the DJ booth.

I had the very important taks of pressing the "play" button on my iPhone and making sure it didn't do anything silly. This DJ-ing, it's a doddle really.

Also, I completely forgot you were going along - did we meet? My memory's like a ... ummm... thing with holes in it... begins with "S"...

 

[UKDancer]

Nothing Else Matters when you're dancing to Apocalyptica's
"Nothing Else Matters" - it would take an apocalypse to stop me..

I don't know the track, and I'm far too old (!) to have caught Metallica the first time around, but having listened to a 30-second clip from an MP3 site, my interest is aroused.

Which version did you dance to? There are several albums listed with versions timed at 4:44 or 4:45 (which are the same, I think) and another, (from Cult) at 5:19. How do they compare (for dancing) with Metallica's own version?

What else might you put it with to make a satisfying tanda?

 

[JohnEm]

Also, I completely forgot you were going along - did we meet? My memory's like a ... ummm... thing with holes in it... begins with "S"...

No we didn't meet as it happens, too busy dancing etc.

But as I have the advantage now, I was the loon who dusted off
his rusty WCS one night in one of CJ's blues sessions after
I'd pinched my partner from under your nose.
Anyway you didn't seem keen enough!

Sorry, well I'm not really. She's a lovely dancer and had already
mentioned in passing me that she was looking to West Coast.
It seemed only fair.

Good job cabaceo doesn't rule at RB.

Anyway that won't be much help either as your "memory's like a ...
ummm... thing with holes in it... begins with "S"... ".

See, sieve like memory is catching. Need to tango more,
that's supposes to develop the mind and fight addle headedness.

 

[chanchan]

Conversely, the problem with never teaching a pattern is that people never get an idea of how technique relates to movements in the real world.

If a pattern is driven by a technique, is used as an example of that technique, and if the teacher explicitly states that this is an example, I think patterns are OK as teaching aids.

If the teacher explicitly states that this is only an example (and so, in the real world you don't have to repeat it as it is, but you can change it as you want), then it is no more a pattern. It is an example.

 

[salthepal]

I avoid crappy electrotango too, but of course, it isn't all crappy. I would be bored silly if I never danced to anything recorded after the upheavals of 1955 brought a rather sudden end to the Golden Age, and to lump everything together, in order to dismiss it, is rather sweeping?

I don't know man; we've had awesome 4+ hour milongas where I played just golden-age tango (in all fairness I do play some tangos from the late 50s and 60s -- Di Sarli, De Angelis, D'Ariinzo, Pugliese) and everyone seems to be enjoying themselves, and many come up to me to thank me for the music, so I must be doing something right.

The trick is program the music right to get a good flow , i.e. balance rhythmic, smooth and dramatic and control the moods of the songs to translate into a mood on the floor. It really takes a lot of thought and it took me lots of practice to get it somewhat right. Might be a tad dogmatic of me, but the way I see it, you can go pretty much anywhere to hear electronica or indie music, but you won't hear tango except at a milonga, so might as well play good tangos. Decent DJing being a must of course. I will agree with you that even with golden-age tangos, if the DJing is not well-thought, then the music will be dull and boring.

 

[JohnEm]

I don't know the track, and I'm far too old (!) to have caught Metalica the first time around, but having listened to a 30-second clip from an MP3 site, my interest is aroused.

Which version did you dance to? There are several albums listed with versions timed at 4:44 or 4:45 (which are the same, I think) and another, (from Cult) at 5:19. How do they compare (for dancing) with Metallica's own version?

What else might you put it with to make a satisfying tanda?

My download is timed at 4.46 - near enough - and is from "Inquisition
Symphony". I don't know "Cult" & might trace that later.

Metallica never was on my radar either so all I know is
that I would not dance to their own rendition.

In a way I'm glad I haven't had to do the honours as DJ though I've
helped non-Tango DJ's put together suitable neo music for
30 to 45 minute sets now and again.

How about trying it with Assassin Tango (from Mr & Mrs Smith)
and perhaps Gustavo Santaolalla's De Usuahia A La Quica
from Motorcycle Diaries. DB is no doubt much better than me at this.

Have a look at Steve and Debbie Morrall's Tango UK site where there is
a useful commented music section. No-one will agree with everything
there, and I'm pretty sure he wouldn't expect that either, but it's a useful
resource from someone who is musician, tanguero and teacher.
Googling for Neo playlists will reveal bigger lists, but without commentary.
HTH

 

[UKDancer]

I will agree with you that even with golden-age tangos, if the DJing is not well-thought, then the music will be dull and boring.

I made no reference to the DJ, but wouldn't want to dance Golden Age all night, even if the DJ was brilliant. It doesn't have to be either GA or electro tango - there are contemporary tango orcehstras playing in a very traditional stlye. I'm a heretic, and think that Color Tango's La Yumba is better than any of Pugliese's, because I can actually hear the musicians. I expect that if I had ever heard the original, live, I'd revise my view, but of course, I haven't.

I don't like Di Sarli's later 60s stuff, at all...