Learning to lead as a woman

[samina]

She also occasionally mentions adaptations for short reaches (whether due to short arms or long distances that those arms have to cover) and how to reconnect (e.g., after a spin) in a way that does not involve contact with "off-limits" body parts. As a woman, you're probably a bit less concerned about inadvertent improper contact, but DH has mentioned his terror at the prospect of reaching into a spinning mass and coming out safely, not to mention accomplishing the goal of the pattern in question.

that's great that she teaches this zhena, really excellent.

i remember my very first experience of leading, and it was in rueda, where you lose contact with your partner and then a new partner comes into your space (or vice versa), so there's this flying female body coming at you. and as a woman, it was a brand-new experience. i'm *used to* being able to put my hands in the vicinity of a man's chest and not even giving a second thought as to something being off-limits, really. but suddenly... i had to be very aware of this. and i was like, holy crap, where do i put my hands? i really gained an appreciation for what it's like for men, and i'm glad i had that experience early on in my dance journey.

i didn't feel that tonight. though there was definitely a very hyped-up body-awareness. mostly, i focused on giving the lead *I* would want, on "showing up" for the ladies with my frame and my energy, and thru my hands, so they could feel as much information as possible. and that probably was strange for them as well, having a woman do that and really *dance* with them.

there was a whole hip-connection thing that was unique to the female-female connection as well. there's just less room for turning and such with two women, so we naturally connected more around the hips. it was just different as compared to dancing with a man.

This is more of a concern in dances like WCS, salsa and Hungarian that involve numerous free spins. Smooth/standard dancers may have no conception of the hazards involved.

interesting. i'll keep an eye out for that. in the pattern we worked on, it was unusual in that the *lead* did a double turn... a single turn while holding onto the hand of the lead, and then another turn. the holding on keeps you close, with the follow's hand around/close to your waist. and then you travel on the last spin, to match the follow on the basic. not a free spin or catching a follow doing that.

Oh, and ... congratulations on leading. I tried for a while when the structure of the classes we were attending made it reasonable, and I rather miss the experience. Take advantage of your opportunity ... it can only improve your dancing in the long run.

thank you... and i agree!

leading is just such a different perspective!

 

[BR-folk-square]

At last, a positive thread on switching roles!!

I'm interested in going back to the beginning in group classes as a "follow" so that I can better understand the woman's steps and what I need to do as a leader to give her the right signals.

The problem is that there are already too many women in those group classes and so I'll have nobody to lead me. That makes it a pointless exercise unless I can find a tall enough woman who is interested in learning to lead.

Kudos to you all, the men who want to folllow and the women who want to lead. I have been wanting to do this since before I started ballroom dancing, in fact I did oher kinds of dancing for 40 years because they were less sexist.

I too have danced follow in a few classes, on evenings when there were many more men than women. With absolute beginners I was able to give the men better pointers on leading than the absolute beginner women.

Now, if there were more dancers who switched roles for social dancing....

--Carey

 

[JetQueen]

Hi everyone, great advice for the OP here!

For whatever it's worth to you, here are my two cents: I began ballroom dancing earlier this spring and fell in love with it. I started with a single weekly group class, moved on to a few months of unlimited group classes with a studio activity card, and then, BAM! I realized this summer that the only way I was going to be able to learn effectively was to learn the lead as well as the follow. My search for an ideal solution took me to enrolling in the Dvida instructors certification program. As a woman with virtually no ballroom experience I cannot recommend this enough! I just couldn't begin to imagine a better way to learn a dance more thoroughly than to attack it from both perspectives without a male or female bias/perspective. I have had approximately 25 private lessons (and many bonus workshops) so far and I feel that if these had been strictly normal privates (as opposed to syllabus oriented sessions) that, while I may have learned more patterns by now, I would not be on my way to truly 'owning' the steps, knowing them, and understanding them inside-out. To comprehend the actual mechanics, logic, cause and effect of each movement, takes you to a deeper level of understanding than you could probably get by only perfecting one role.

For the record, while I have no plan to teach (other than perhaps on a volunteer basis), I do have a heartfelt respect for this amazing 'sport' and this effort is just my way of doing it justice

BTW, as I go along this path I find it very helpful to play the guy in group classes. So far the ladies have been just amazing in their support and patience with my being a newbie guy. Additionally, this entire experience has not only improved my follower's skills, it has truly opened my eyes as to the load the guy carries as the leader!! *EMPATHY*, there is no substitute, lol!

 

[Terpsichorean Clod]

Additionally, this entire experience has not only improved my follower's skills, it has truly opened my eyes as to the load the guy carries as the leader!! *EMPATHY*, there is no substitute, lol!

Yeah, I experienced some feelings upon starting to dance the opposite role. Remorse. :razz:

Thanks for sharing and welcome to Dance Forums, JetQueen!

 

[megeliz]

it has truly opened my eyes as to the load the guy carries as the leader!! *EMPATHY*, there is no substitute, lol!

Unfortunately, this has backfired on me somewhat. For new leaders, I absolutely have MUCH more empathy than I would otherwise, but for leaders that have been dancing longer than I have? Nope. I've been dancing for less than 2 years, and have learned how to follow AND lead in that time, and am ROUTINELY told I lead better than a lot of guys...so I actually get a little more frustrated by guys that have been dancing longer that still lead worse than I do.

 

[DL]

Unfortunately, this has backfired on me somewhat. For new leaders, I absolutely have MUCH more empathy than I would otherwise, but for leaders that have been dancing longer than I have? Nope. I've been dancing for less than 2 years, and have learned how to follow AND lead in that time, and am ROUTINELY told I lead better than a lot of guys...so I actually get a little more frustrated by guys that have been dancing longer that still lead worse than I do.

What would you say helped you the most in acquiring leading skills?

ETA

What would you say has been the biggest obstacle for you in acquiring leading skills?

 

[megeliz]

What would you say helped you the most in acquiring leading skills?

ETA

What would you say has been the biggest obstacle for you in acquiring leading skills?

I really worked my basics HARD before I even THOUGHT about learning variations. For the first 6 to 9 months or so of learning to lead, I refused to touch anything that wasn't a basic, and really focused on technique - regularly asking for feedback. I've also been fortunate to have friends that have been invested in my dance and have worked with me privately in an informal manner (no money involved) on my lead and follow, as well as general mechanics of the dance.

As for obstacles...probably brain overload! It really took a while to be able to lead with ANY level of competence...probably a month before I could even lead to music - being the one who initiated the dance and finding the right place to start was nerve wracking (even though I could easily find it as a follower)! For the next 2 months or so, I challenged myself to lead at least one dance a night, but I would only lead women that I knew could take over for me when my brain got overloaded about halfway through the song. It was probably 3 months after I started learning to lead that I could lead through an entire song! Even now, in classes, I'm a COMPLETE trainwreck by the end of the class trying to string together 3 new moves in succession - my brain just can't absorb info that fast!


So, for beginners, I have LOTS of empathy (although I get irked when they try to do fancy moves when they can't lead proper basics...I try not to let it show). It took me that long to be able to lead, and I already knew the structure of the dance and how it was supposed to look and feel!
For guys that have been dancing longer than I have, and are still manhandling me or have absolutely terrible connection? I have very little patience.

 

[DL]

I've also been fortunate to have friends that have been invested in my dance and have worked with me privately in an informal manner (no money involved) on my lead and follow, as well as general mechanics of the dance.
[...]

For guys that have been dancing longer than I have, and are still manhandling me or have absolutely terrible connection? I have very little patience.

Hmm.

 

[Terpsichorean Clod]

Posts split off and moved here: Teaching by students

 

[Warren J. Dew]

Unfortunately, this has backfired on me somewhat. For new leaders, I absolutely have MUCH more empathy than I would otherwise, but for leaders that have been dancing longer than I have? Nope. I've been dancing for less than 2 years, and have learned how to follow AND lead in that time, and am ROUTINELY told I lead better than a lot of guys...so I actually get a little more frustrated by guys that have been dancing longer that still lead worse than I do.

Do you also encounter followers who have been dancing longer but still follow worse than you? How do you feel about them?

 

[harp34552]

What would you say helped you the most in acquiring leading skills?

I spent a lot of time going to beginner group classes as a beginner lead and starting from the ground up. It moved relatively quickly, since I already knew how to dance, but I was listening in a different way. And it was a great chance to practice leading, with a ready supply of ladies who didn't expect amazing leads right out of the gate. From there I gradually started to include more advanced group classes until I was able to lead in more or less any group class at a decent level. I am still not an advanced lead by any stretch, but I have gotten a lot better. (The ladies I dance with confirm this; they definitely notice an improvement!) And I still go to beginner classes all the time to work on my leading.

What would you say has been the biggest obstacle for you in acquiring leading skills?

Much like megeliz, I find it is a brain problem more than an execution problem. Having to actively think ahead about what to do next, creating space and initiating movement all require me to think in a totally different way than I do when I follow. I find I have to actively engage my brain all the time when I lead - it is not automatic yet in the way that it is when I follow. But it's getting there; sometimes I can even talk to my follow a little bit as we dance!

 

[megeliz]

Do you also encounter followers who have been dancing longer but still follow worse than you? How do you feel about them?

That's a very subjective question, because there's the connection piece and the way your dance looks - and it's the way your dance looks that gets rewarded in competition. There are some gorgeous dancers that have been very successful in competition, that are very hard for me to lead, and there are women who don't look like anything special on the floor, but have great connection, and are super responsive to my lead.

That said, there's a huge difference between dealing with a bad leader and dealing with a bad follower. Bad followers are generally far less dangerous than bad leaders. As a leader, I have control over the dance, and can decide which moves I should or should not lead my follower through. As a follower, I have no control over what my leader chooses to lead, I can only do my best to protect my body.

I kind of get the feeling that you guys are thinking I'm expecting nothing less than amazing leaders. I'm just talking about basic frickin' connection - compression when there needs to be compression, extension on the anchor (in WCS), NOT manhandling the follower, leading turns on the appropriate beat, maintaining basic frame, in WCS, leading me from my CENTER and not my BOOBS. I really don't think this is a TON to ask of a guy who's been dancing for over 2 years.

 

[DL]

That's a very subjective question

So is the question of how "good" a leader is.

Bad followers are generally far less dangerous than bad leaders.

Sorry, but: phooey.

I kind of get the feeling that you guys are thinking I'm expecting nothing less than amazing leaders. I'm just talking about basic frickin' connection - compression when there needs to be compression, extension on the anchor (in WCS), NOT manhandling the follower, leading turns on the appropriate beat, maintaining basic frame, in WCS, leading me from my CENTER and not my BOOBS. I really don't think this is a TON to ask of a guy who's been dancing for over 2 years.

Let me expound upon my earlier "hmm", which to be honest I had hoped would stand on its own.

You said that relationships with people willing to help you were valuable in learning to lead. But, you don't seem to be offering that sort of help to the leaders you complain about here; and who knows if they have access to it anywhere else. Meanwhile, you suggest that it's appropriate to hold beginner followers to a lower standard.

 

[DL]

Sorry, but: phooey.

Actually, I take this back. But, I still reject the implication that bad followers can't be dangerous.

 

[megeliz]

So is the question of how "good" a leader is.

Which is why I just specified what I value in a lead. There are guys that have been dancing for 10 years that still lead me from my boobs rather than my center and completely manhandle their follows. Sorry, I don't really enjoy dancing with these people.

Sorry, but: phooey.
....
Actually, I take this back. But, I still reject the implication that bad followers can't be dangerous.

Absolutely, but that's why I said generally. I will say that I've never come close to being injured because of my follow. I can't say that about leaders.

Let me expound upon my earlier "hmm", which to be honest I had hoped would stand on its own.

You said that relationships with people willing to help you were valuable in learning to lead. But, you don't seem to be offering that sort of help to the leaders you complain about here; and who knows if they have access to it anywhere else. Meanwhile, you suggest that it's appropriate to hold beginner followers to a lower standard.

I responded to the "Hmm" comment sensing that you were implying something along those lines, but it got moved to the students teaching thread. In my response, I mentioned that I think that any frustration on my part comes from the fact that good dance etiquette would have me suffer an uncomfortable dance in silence because to give unsolicited feedback is rude.
And I'll talk shop with anyone. I love dancing with beginners, and have gotten pretty good at getting them to ask me for feedback. (And yes, of course beginners should be held to lower standards than people who have been dancing for a few years or more)

...And don't misunderstand me, it's not like I have some vendetta against average leaders. I just sometimes get irked with guys that have been dancing for a long time and still manhandle their follows or have zero sense of connection.