Los codigos de milongas: Do not bump

[Steve Pastor]

I was just wondering what you meant by these "tricks"?

I often find that leaders won't engage in "close embrace", not that I'm great at it either. It's like everybody's scared of it. I'd like to work on it, but most leaders are busy trying to do ganchos.

Back on the subject of knowing where the woman's weight is, I've been told (quite possibly by a respected teacher) to get my heels down on the floor where possible as the leader can feel the sense of grounding more clearly. And it's better for the lady's metatarsals, probably. Would anyone go along with this?

I think you pretty much answered your own question about "tricks".

I LOVE close embrace, but, I've been spoiled by apilado close embrace. So, if you want to do "close embrace", I want you to share weight with me. And you are absolutely right

It's like everybody's scared of it.

Regarding heels, yes, I like them to be down.
You've seen photos of people with prothetics running 10ks and marathons? Those curved springie things? That's how most women feel when they dance on their toes.

There are full length mirrors on the walls where I dance. Way more often than not, when I can't feel where the woman's feet are, they are on their "toes".

Regarding weight changes...
Laure Haile is now know mostly for codifing what we now call West Coast Swing, and she just happened to have been National Dance Director for Arthur Murray Studios in the late 40s & 50s. "Dance Teacher Now" carried an article she wrote "Teaching a Class in Weight Change" that was an excerpt from her book, "I Love to Dance".
What she wrote is a timeless description of clean weight changes.
THAT is what I am looking for in my partners.

Without some of these basic things in "close embrace", the man engages in a sort of mind reading about where the woman's feet, and her weight are.

 

[AndaBien]

...Back on the subject of knowing where the woman's weight is, I've been told (quite possibly by a respected teacher) to get my heels down on the floor where possible as the leader can feel the sense of grounding more clearly. And it's better for the lady's metatarsals, probably. Would anyone go along with this?

Two thoughts here. First, one of my early tango teachers, a woman, told all women to get down on their heels as often as possible, to make it easy on their feet. That was an open-embrace class.

Second, I wonder how much women are able to do this in apilado, if at all. As I recall, it seems to me that most women dancing apilado dance on their toes. I don't like it when I can feel my partners feet hitting the floor - it jars our embrace. I do need to feel her axis though. I like it when my partner arrives clearly on her axis. If I can feel when and where her axis forms, that's fine with me. If you're familiar with the cursor "snapping" to the grid in graphics programs, that's sort of like what I mean.

 

[Peaches]

I was just wondering what you meant by these "tricks"?

I often find that leaders won't engage in "close embrace", not that I'm great at it either. It's like everybody's scared of it. I'd like to work on it, but most leaders are busy trying to do ganchos.

Back on the subject of knowing where the woman's weight is, I've been told (quite possibly by a respected teacher) to get my heels down on the floor where possible as the leader can feel the sense of grounding more clearly. And it's better for the lady's metatarsals, probably. Would anyone go along with this?

Dunno how it feels to others, but I dance with my heels down all the time. Obviously not while pivoting, and I'll come off them in fas, small movements like you tend to get with milonga, but I was always told to use them. I can't imagine dancing without having my heels down naturally...so tiring, and restrictive!

 

[Peaches]

Two thoughts here. First, one of my early tango teachers, a woman, told all women to get down on their heels as often as possible, to make it easy on their feet. That was an open-embrace class.

Second, I wonder how much women are able to do this in apilado, if at all. As I recall, it seems to me that most women dancing apilado dance on their toes. I don't like it when I can feel my partners feet hitting the floor - it jars our embrace. I do need to feel her axis though. I like it when my partner arrives clearly on her axis. If I can feel when and where her axis forms, that's fine with me. If you're familiar with the cursor "snapping" to the grid in graphics programs, that's sort of like what I mean.

Dunno about what other people are doing, or why, but to me the style of the embrace has nothing to do with how I use my heels. Apilado, salon, nuevo, some mix of all three...my heels don't change.

 

[Madahlia]

As I recall, it seems to me that most women dancing apilado dance on their toes.

Is that true for women the same height as you or for women who are significantly shorter than you? I've had the feeling of having to be upon my toes in order to maintain the connection. It feels stressful and destabilizing!

I like it when my partner arrives clearly on her axis. If I can feel when and where her axis forms, that's fine with me. If you're familiar with the cursor "snapping" to the grid in graphics programs, that's sort of like what I mean.

I've been told about this, not sure if I do it.

 

[AndaBien]

Is that true for women the same height as you or for women who are significantly shorter than you? I've had the feeling of having to be upon my toes in order to maintain the connection. It feels stressful and destabilizing!

I'm only reflecting on what I remember seeing, but it seems to me that most women dancing apilado dance on their toes, regardless of their height relative to their partner.

I'll certainly take a good look around next time I'm at a milonga.

 

[LoveTango]

...
And by the way, my heel tip gets caught in the toe of the other shoe regularly, and my partners know what happened.

Oh, that hurts. I thought only I have such problem.

 

[bordertangoman]

oN the Heels down or up; I dont know what the definitive answer is;

in this clip Mamie ances mostly with her heels up.

here's Michelle of tango west..more heels up, it looks like..

Osca and Mary Ann Casas; heels up..

 

[Madahlia]

Sometimes it's easy to get your heels down on each step - a slow walk backwards, for example. Othertimes, there's no time to get your heels down if you want to be responsive to quick steps or pivots, for example. (OTOH, wait for me to get my heels down, goddammit, we've got all day, haven't we?)

Even so, I thought the lady in the last clip had her heels up a lot more often than she had to. Do you think she would have felt a bit floaty and vague to a leader?

It's a bad habit that I got into in the early days of learning to dance and I've had to work on it. I'm sure it's harmed my feet.

And by the way, my heel tip gets caught in the toe of the other shoe regularly, and my partners know what happened

I used to regularly rake my heel across the front of my other foot. After drawing blood a number of times I've managed to train myself out of it. Not sure if my partners realised, they were probably too busy tripping over their own toes at the time! If it happens now, I do see it as some sort of fault or inaccuracy: maybe I didn't pivot sufficiently to clear my foot or lift it sufficiently. Sometimes the leader is doing something which doesn't give me enough room, maybe something was rushed.

 

[sixela]

in this clip Mamie ances mostly with her heels up.

No, she isn't. It appears so because the dance has a lot of pivots led early, but when she's walking backwards she very decidedly puts he heel down. The same holds for Michelle (again with obvious exceptions when there's a rock step led early).

Mary Ann Casas does dance mainly on the heels, but note how small the steps are: she can get away with it. Would she dance with a leader who takes larger steps, I don't doubt she would also use the heels more.

Ladies will not always dance with their heels down - some actions require them to stay on the balls of their feet (and the leader will actually 'land' their axis on top of them). They will obviously also land on the ball of the foot, so even when they do use the heels they'll appear not to for the better part of the step.

some ladies, on the other hand, will refuse to roll from toe to heel even when you lead it, and that's quite a different matter. Some will use tension in the calves to actively avoid using the heel without disturbing the leader (and then it's up to them, I have no issue with that, but unless they train their muscles very well it's not easy to avoid eventual strain and injuries), but others will simply refuse to be led with their axis on top of the bridge of the feet or the heel, and then I do take issue.

 

[bordertangoman]

No, she isn't. It appears so because the dance has a lot of pivots led early, but when she's walking backwards she very decidedly puts he heel down.

Ladies will not always dance with their heels down - some actions require them to stay on the balls of their feet (and the leader will actually 'land' their axis on top of them).

Their dance starts with walking and she's not putting her heels down on the floor...

please look again.

 

[sixela]

Their dance starts with walking and she's not putting her heels down on the floor...

The you have a different set of eyes from mine. I've watched the movie frame by frame to check it...in that first few steps to the camera the heels land except when the step is followed immediately by a pivot (i.e. because the lead prevents it). The shape of her shoes makes it a bit treacherous to see unless you go to at least 720p resolution, but not once the camera is closer. The only exceptions are moments in which she's facing the leader with both feet and there's just a tiny wee bit of carpa (i.e. the leader forces her axis to the front).

I'll reiterate what I said: if a leader doesn't allow a follower to use her heels, then obviously she won't, and there may be styles (or styles combined with height differences or follower height combined with step lengths) that may lead to almost "heelless" dances especially if you don't know where to look (there's more than the free foot, which the follower may position any way she likes just because it is free). But that doesn't mean these women actively avoid dancing on their heels.

I've even made a snapshot of the exact time the heel lands on one of the steps, which is (not by coincidence) just before the leader transfers her axis beyond the ball of her foot. But I can't post attachments or post URLs, so you'll have to make your own snapshot.

One character of style in her dance is that she will raise the heel of the foot that becomes the free foot fairly early, so she doesn't spend a lot of time on the heels (because she lands on the heel just in time, and lifts it as early as possible).

 

[bordertangoman]

The you have a different set of eyes from mine. I've watched the movie frame by frame to check it...in that first few steps to the camera the heels land except when the step is followed immediately by a pivot (i.e. because the lead prevents it). The shape of her shoes makes it a bit treacherous to see unless you go to at least 720p resolution, but not once the camera is closer. The only exceptions are moments in which she's facing the leader with both feet and there's just a tiny wee bit of carpa (i.e. the leader forces her axis to the front).

I'll reiterate what I said: if a leader doesn't allow a follower to use her heels, then obviously she won't, and there may be styles (or styles combined with height differences or follower height combined with step lengths) that may lead to almost "heelless" dances especially if you don't know where to look (there's more than the free foot, which the follower may position any way she likes just because it is free). But that doesn't mean these women actively avoid dancing on their heels.

I've even made a snapshot of the exact time the heel lands on one of the steps, which is (not by coincidence) just before the leader transfers her axis beyond the ball of her foot. But I can't post attachments or post URLs, so you'll have to make your own snapshot.

One character of style in her dance is that she will raise the heel of the foot that becomes the free foot fairly early, so she doesn't spend a lot of time on the heels (because she lands on the heel just in time, and lifts it as early as possible).

I cant really be bothered to argue with you; I wasnt making a case. I just looked at some examples of milonguero dancing to see what they do. she dances mostly with her heels off the ground, as I originally said... and your conclusions are right she gets her weight off the heel in order to keep up the pace of the step.

 

[bordertangoman]

Here's another example

 

[sixela]

She dances mostly with her heels off the ground, as I originally said...

No argument from me. But it's different from the last follower in the series you posted and the follower in your last post, who often don't even transition through a moment in which the heel connects to the floor.

Even they are different: the former takes small steps (because of the style of the dance) and can elect not to place the heel with relative impunity, the latter actually has to work very hard at not using the heels (and does it well, but that's not something I'd recommend to untrained followers).

I think that's the real difference: all followers will spend a lot of time with the heel off the floor (as will most leaders, though it'll be less visible), but some will spend no time at all on the heels, and that's very different.

Incidentally, thanks for posting the first video. I now have ammunition should anyone start nagging about the fact no good leader lands on the heel and rolls from heel to toe .