Los codigos de milongas: Do not bump

[Dave Bailey]

Here I keep in mind what Nito Garcia told in a beginner workshop, if I move with the food, following the LOD and bump into a static someone, then it is his fault.

Why? If you can see them and the leader in front of you can't see you, and you still bump into them, why's it their fault?

I mean, if you're driving along and a car in front of you stops for some reason, is it "their fault" if you then smash into them?

I rarely bump though, last time was in December, and gosh how long it was to explain to a couple of beginners who did not know who Nito was in the first place, that despite their being the bumped ones they were also the guilty ones. I did not even tried to quote Gavito (You can be static in the milonga flood but then be prepared for hits) coz I figured that the two Phillistines would not know this name either. They even whined to their teachers (it was during a practise) who then apologized to me, explaining they had not taught much yet about codigos.

Ah, wind-up yes?

Sorry, I'm slow...

 

[Peaches]

Agreed.

Yeah, they may technically be at fault for stopping in a milonga, but if you see them and bump them anyway...it's on you. Period. Yeah, thing can happen, but etiquette calls for apologies all around. And, mostly, it calls for not bumping them if you can avoid it, regardless of if they are technically in the wrong. I can't believe this is a debatable point.

And if you're talking about beginners, in a practica...??? Good lord.

 

[bordertangoman]

Here I keep in mind what Nito Garcia told in a beginner workshop, if I move with the food, following the LOD and bump into a static someone, then it is his fault.

you were dancing and eating?
or were you a waiter at this event?

 

[LoveTango]

I made reference to Alicia Pons because she includes classical ballet movements in tango. Tango is a social dance.

Oh. I misunderstood. I liked the performance and thought I showed good taste.

 

[AndaBien]

I made reference to Alicia Pons because she includes classical ballet movements in tango. Tango is a social dance.

Are you suggesting that dancers should erase all of their personal dance experience and influence that doesn't adhere to "social tango styling"? If you are, how would they even do that?

I have long and diverse experience in dance and I think it contributes to my tango. I don't see it as an impurity.

 

[jantango]

I have a video of Alicia Pons dancing in El Beso about ten years when she danced normally with her feet on the floor, adding no adornments whatsoever. If the quality wasn't so poor, I'd upload it to YouTube. I attended Cacho Dante's classes in 1999, when Alicia began teaching with him.

Her dancing has changed over the years she has toured. She does ballet barre movements while dancing tango. Perhaps compliments from women have prompted her to incorporate even more ballet into her tango to the point that it no longer looks like tango. She lifts her feet for every step.

I studied classical ballet and other dance forms, including ballroom. You learn the way things are done for each discipline. I practice ballet barre to keep my legs and feet strong for tango, but I don't take ballet technique to the milonga floor. I studied Spanish dancing, but I'm not going to stomp my heels in tango. I danced rock 'n' roll, but I won't bounce in tango. A dancer learns discipline through practice.

I've never seen women in high heels walking with the heels off the floor; it's very difficult and not necessary. Why should it be done while dancing? That's what is presented by many who teach and students copy it simply because their Argentine teacher does it that way.

 

[Zoopsia59]

That's what is presented by many who teach and students copy it simply because their Argentine teacher does it that way.

I actually had an Argentine teacher tell me NOT to put my heels down because he could feel the "drop" or "clunk" when I did. It always seemed to me that it would have made more sense for him to work on getting this transition through the foot smoother for me than telling me to not ever put my heels down.

Luckily I had another Argentine teacher (female... with a lot more experience in wearing high heels) work with me on exactly that...

 

[Zoopsia59]

I've never seen women in high heels walking with the heels off the floor; it's very difficult and not necessary. Why should it be done while dancing?

I would say that the majority of women wearing heels on the street probably shouldn't be. They don't have the foot, ankle or leg strength and flexibility to do it without problems. My personal rule for high heels on my street shoes was that I needed to be able to lift the heels off the floor by rising higher on my toes. If I couldn't, the heels were too high.

I have also run in heels and climbed ladders. (a consequence of having a technical problems backstage AFTER I have changed into my dress for opening night galas... Try climbing a wall "rung" ladder from a basement to a control booth in a skin tight full length gown and stilettos, with a bunch of stagehands cheering you on!)

Many women wear street shoes that lift them higher onto their toes than they can actually accomplish, much less maintain, without the shoe. Then they are constantly sinking down into the shoe and often their whole frame collapses. I tend to actually have better posture in heels (but some of that may be because I carry myself differently when dressed up)

I've also noticed that many ballet dancers walk (forward) in heels with a duck waddle that uses the hips and the knees very differently from the average woman, and certainly very differently that would be appropriate in tango. I walked this way in heels myself despite not having a tremendous amount of turnout in my hips. It actually meant I had to work at learning to walk forward in tango, and struggled with it quite a bit. I can wear higher heels on the street (and climbing ladders! ) than I can for tango because of this difference in forward walking use of my body.

 

[Steve Pastor]

Based on what I see at the practica I attend is not with women wearing high heels and being on their toes, it is with women who switch to flats or a very low heel because they aren't used to waering them, or can't wear them for dancing except for a short period of time.
I think they try to bring the same "feel" of having their weight forward (easier to do in high heels, I've been told!) on the balls of their feet. What gets lost, though, is that solid connection to the ground that the man can feel. I know it can be done, and Jan and Zoops have probably identified the requirement - very strong feet and ankles.
And, yeah, someone who is just learning will feel clunky during the "walk", as they will with any weight change.
I just love it when, rather than someone feeling like they are not there, or barely there, I can feel, for instance, a solid axis and a free leg that is available to move in any direction, and I know exactly where her foot is.

 

[AndaBien]

...I just love it when, rather than someone feeling like they are not there, or barely there, I can feel, for instance, a solid axis and a free leg that is available to move in any direction, and I know exactly where her foot is.

Agree completely. It makes it easy for me to give her a subtle and expressive dance.

 

[Wanderer2]

I actually had an Argentine teacher tell me NOT to put my heels down because he could feel the "drop" or "clunk" when I did. It always seemed to me that it would have made more sense for him to work on getting this transition through the foot smoother for me than telling me to not ever put my heels down.

Luckily I had another Argentine teacher (female... with a lot more experience in wearing high heels) work with me on exactly that...

Indeed: I quit dancing with a very nice lady who was sending heavy landing shocks up to our heads (we had head contact) on every step, causing severe irritations /in my head.

I think the landing should be absorbed on the balls and the heel should afterwords land very smooth, even unnoticable...

What did the experienced teacher say?

 

[LadyLeader]

After landing on the ball of the foot you should roll through the feet so you get up on you heel was the instruction I got.
Was it the same for you Zoopsia59?

Maimies heels were like sharks trying to catch the poor leader dancing ahead! I would refuse to dance before her - I have had several times a stiletto in my shoe and I do not like it!

The most safe style is when follower is sending her foot back with inside of the foot looking to the floor and both big toe and heel tip on the floor ALL the time, bigtoe is leading. When going up to the axis she just lifts the inside of the foot up, pivots the heel back. This sounds terrible/complicated but is OK when you try.

 

[bordertangoman]

After landing on the ball of the foot you should roll through the feet so you get up on you heel was the instruction I got.
Was it the same for you Zoopsia59?

Maimies heels were like sharks trying to catch the poor leader dancing ahead! I would refuse to dance before her - I have had several times a stiletto in my shoe and I do not like it!

The most safe style is when follower is sending her foot back with inside of the foot looking to the floor and both big toe and heel tip on the floor ALL the time, bigtoe is leading. When going up to the axis she just lifts the inside of the foot up, pivots the heel back. This sounds terrible/complicated but is OK when you try.

It would be easier to stop women wearing heels!!

i wouldnt allow my students to dance like this. the sound of "sandpapering" is most annoying. I want to hear music not people's shuffling feet.

 

[LadyLeader]

i wouldnt allow my students to dance like this. the sound of "sandpapering" is most annoying. I want to hear music not people's shuffling feet.

I suppose you mean the last one - followers can decide the exact distance to the floor, the position is mportant here. Some teachers from the sacred land are today asking for the shuffling noice; quite against the instructions during my first years of TA.

One interesting detail for Alicia Pons' heels is that she seems to keep them directed to the floor all the time and not horizontal as Mamie sometimes has hers .... it would be ok to have Alicia behind me in dance line becaue the risk that she would reveal my ancle bones is low!

I wonder if the landing point is important here? When landing on toes heels are pointing horizontaly. When landing on the back part of the ball of the foot heels are more directed to the ground. never thought this before....

 

[bordertangoman]

I wonder if the landing point is important here? When landing on toes heels are pointing horizontaly. When landing on the back part of the ball of the foot heels are more directed to the ground. never thought this before....

that's why I couldnt understand your previous post..how on earth do you keep your heels that close to the ground. I mean you wouldnt if you were walking quite normally forward would you? its bizarre.

I had to do a lot of work in correcting a bunch of zombie shoe shufflers ..beginners taught by Person X..it not only made a noise, but their walking wasnt so good..the floor isnt going to drop away because you aint touching it.