Low vs. High boleo - leader's choice or follower's choice?

[Zoopsia59]

Where I disagree with Joe is in the word "resist". You don't have to resist but just give in to the excessive force, making it disappear in your body. At the open side of the abrazo it is pretty easy to give in, by just releasing the elbow...

I agree on this concept, but I believe it is far more instinctive to create tension to resist movement that seem injurious than to totally relax to absorb it. That's one of the reasons why drunk people often don't get hurt as much slipping and falling on a ice sidewalk as sober people do. They aren't as tense when they hit the ground. (I remember an EMT friend breaking something when he fell on the ice and his exact words were: "I wasn't drunk enough the way I usually am walking home from that bar")

Martial artists and skaters are trained to avoid that kind of automatic tension response, but if you watch the average person at a rink, they go through some pretty wild gyrations to avoid falling and usually fall anyway resulting in far more pain than the experienced skaters who have gotten used to falling and roll through it

The average social tango follower does not have that sort of training in her background, so it is something that must be learned from tango. I've been tangoing for some time now (and skated before that) and I still automatically tense to resist a good bit of the time it comes up. Allowing the "frame" (for lack of a better word) that usually allows you to follow to go all "spaggetti arms noodly" is totally counter-intuitive except for people whose arms are too wishy-washy to follow properly in the first place.

And you still can't just relax your arms, because you might find it pushed back behind your shoulder. The whole upper body has to sorta "go limp"

I found the only consistent way I can deal with the issue is to not dance with certain people.

 

[AndaBien]

Where I disagree with Joe is in the word "resist". You don't have to resist but just give in to the excessive force, making it disappear in your body. At the open side of the abrazo it is pretty easy to give in, by just releasing the elbow...

I use this method all the time, as a leader. Well, I only use it when I have a partner that thinks my lead comes from my L arm. I think in apilado the whole connection is found in the chest, with the arms doing very little work at all. If I have a partner who wants to push on my L arm, I just let it fly away.

 

[Dave Bailey]

So, a question on boleos...

As I understand it, for the "straight-legged" linear versions, the movement is from the hip, yes?

Whereas for the "whip" linear or ocho-based boleos, the free leg movement is more below the knee, with the thighs mainly close together?

Does that sound reasonable?

 

[bordertangoman]

So, a question on boleos...

As I understand it, for the "straight-legged" linear versions, the movement is from the hip, yes?

Whereas for the "whip" linear or ocho-based boleos, the free leg movement is more below the knee, with the thighs mainly close together?

Does that sound reasonable?

No:

if a circular boleo starts with say a sacada; the foot can start moving in an arc over the floor;
the knee joint wont allow for this; as it is a hinge joint ; the hip is a ball and socket joint and this facilitates circular movement.
(Yes I know I'm stating the bleedin' obvious)
eventually the thighs come together; then the knee can take the remaining energy and flick - if the follower allows.

 

[Dave Bailey]

the knee joint wont allow for this; as it is a hinge joint ; the hip is a ball and socket joint and this facilitates circular movement.
(Yes I know I'm stating the bleedin' obvious)

Err... yes... obvious... :doh:

eventually the thighs come together; then the knee can take the remaining energy and fllick - if the follower allows.

I guess what I'm asking is whether there's a qualitative difference between straight-leg boleos and the "flick" ones, or whether it's quantitative?

That is, ignoring any rotation, are they both the same movement but with different levels of energy?

 

[gniksic]

That is, ignoring any rotation, are they both the same movement but with different levels of energy?

I could have misunderstood, but if you are comparing the whole-leg-boleo and the below-the-knee-boleo, I will rephrase what I said before, because I believe it applies to linear boleos, too:

I believe that if the follower's "free" leg is really free and relaxed, then by increasing the energy of the lead we can only increase the final height the follower's leg will reach as a whole. At the end the foot swings some more due to the conservation of angular momentum and the fact that the leg is relaxed. I don't understand why the follower would choose to allow only one half of her leg to be free (apart from the obvious lack of space and the potential danger a free leg can pose, but I believe we're all aware of that). It seems to me that it takes effort (=tension) to keep the thighs together during a high-energy boleo, linear or circular. I believe this tension could cause discomfort to both dancers (but not necessarily).

I.e. my question is: is there a special way to "lead" the follower into making a boleo only from below her knee, or is it a matter of her choice and style?

My opinion: her choice, because I only see the whole-leg boleos around here. We've been taught that way and I lead only those (the circular way).

 

[bastet]

Err... yes... obvious... :doh:


I guess what I'm asking is whether there's a qualitative difference between straight-leg boleos and the "flick" ones, or whether it's quantitative?

That is, ignoring any rotation, are they both the same movement but with different levels of energy?

To throw a wrench in things, I've learned them (circular boleos) 2 ways.
One way (by teachers I consider more "Nuevo" for lack of a better term) is what one of my teachers calls an "attitude" boleo, where the whole leg is involved and the thighs aren't together. The other, from my traditional style teachers involves keeping the thighs together. There seem to be a lot more what I call Nuevo-ish (no style mongering intended) dancers in Europe, which may answer the question of why you see that style boleo more often over there, perhaps...but that is just one mildly uninformed persons guess.

The upshot of the lead was the same, if I recall, but the styling of the follwer's body/leg reaction was taught differently. I dance them both depending on my leader and the style he is leading, crowd conditions (if allowed at all) though most of my training is with the traditional styling of them and that's how I tend to do them most unless dancing completely open.

 

[sixela]

To throw a wrench in things, I've learned them (circular boleos) 2 ways.

I've seen other ways as well. To me, the essence of a boleo is the dissociation at the waist, and what happens below is an element of style. Birkit from the Netherlands is someone I've seen doing wildly dissociated boleos where even the feet stayed collected, yet I can vouch for the fact that for the leader they felt exactly like other more regular boleos.

Of course, if you dance strictly with a parallel embrace 100% of the time, you won't be doing what I call boleos, not ever (though you may dance something similar, i.e. an interrupted ocho milonguero, possibly with a punteo as an embellishment). But others may also see that as a "boleo".

 

[Zoopsia59]

I guess what I'm asking is whether there's a qualitative difference between straight-leg boleos and the "flick" ones, or whether it's quantitative?

That is, ignoring any rotation, are they both the same movement but with different levels of energy?

Do you mean the same from the leader's point of view or the followers? My POV is strictly from the followers:

I think it depends to some extent on the style the follower is employing and how flexible her hips are. I know a follower who does gorgeous boleos of the "kick your opposing elbow" variety, which often (I assume she's led) travel from that position in back to an equally high and beautiful front boleo. In the back position, her thigh is parallel to the floor or higher.

I personally can't do that no matter how I'm led. My thigh does not raise behind my hip because my hips are too stiff. To raise my thigh in back, I must tip my pelvis forward a corresponding amount. If I try to let the thighs and knees come apart for this type of boleo, it just looks half-arsed and sloppy. So I typically keep my knees pretty close together and the raised "whip" is from my knees down. (of course, we know that the whipping action stems from higher up and from the pivot, as you said, but that's not what I think you are asking about)

In other words.. I don't raise my thigh. But other followers frequently do. The amount of energy from the leader doesn't decide that. (luckily around here, leaders don't use excessive energy for that type of boleo, so the follower CAN choose)

It helps that I was first taught to do boleos without raising my foot at all, and the free leg knee tucked in slightly behind the supporting leg knee, keeping them together. I have to say that some of the followers I know who do beautiful high boleos, always do high boleos.. a few of them, I don't think I've ever seen execute a boleo with their foot on the floor, although I know the leaders they dance with do not use force that would prevent them from keeping their leg lower.

I'm not sure what you mean by a "straight-leg" boleo (I assume you don't mean a boleo where the knee never bends, right?). If you are referring to what I would call a back "in-line" boleo, then it does usually involve raising the thigh. Otherwise it really doesn't go anywhere. I rarely get led in these and I often resist them when I am unless I am dancing with a leader I know well, and trust to gauge the available distance (despite his foreshortened view) correctly. Even though my leg won't go high (not like those girls who can kick the back of their head) they can still be a menace if I do them because unfortunately, the leaders most likely to lead this type of boleo unsafely are the same ones who do it with such force that keeping my leg down can hurt me.

Does that help with your question?

 

[Zoopsia59]

I don't understand why the follower would choose to allow only one half of her leg to be free. It seems to me that it takes effort (=tension) to keep the thighs together during a high-energy boleo, linear or circular. I believe this tension could cause discomfort to both dancers (but not necessarily).

I.e. my question is: is there a special way to "lead" the follower into making a boleo only from below her knee, or is it a matter of her choice and style?

My opinion: her choice, because I only see the whole-leg boleos around here. We've been taught that way and I lead only those (the circular way).

See my post.

Personally, I think boleos should be led so that the follower always has the choice of keeping her leg low and even her foot on the floor. I was taught that the follower is responsible for knowing what's happening around her and keeping her own foot down when there isn't space for her to raise it.

I know that's not what others may teach, because then it means that to some extent, the raising of the leg in the boleo is "artificial" (ie: not completely effected by the leader's force) A follower is not supposed to "do" a boleo... it's just supposed to "happen".

However, in real life as opposed to theory, followers shouldn't be led so that the leader is choosing how high her leg goes because there may be factors that he can't account for (like maybe she's not warmed up yet for that head-kicking thing) Keeping my thighs together may be awkward, but not nearly as painful as having someone jerk me this way and that in an attempt to do something "impressive" which results in my leg getting thrown forcefully beyond it's range of flexibility, and my muscles and joints pulled as a result.

I love tango, but I need to be able to walk the next day. Boleos aren't worth limping over.

 

[Zoopsia59]

To throw a wrench in things, I've learned them (circular boleos) 2 ways.
One way (by teachers I consider more "Nuevo" for lack of a better term) is what one of my teachers calls an "attitude" boleo, where the whole leg is involved and the thighs aren't together. The other, from my traditional style teachers involves keeping the thighs together. There seem to be a lot more what I call Nuevo-ish (no style mongering intended) dancers in Europe, which may answer the question of why you see that style boleo more often over there, perhaps...but that is just one mildly uninformed persons guess.

The upshot of the lead was the same, if I recall, but the styling of the follwer's body/leg reaction was taught differently. I dance them both depending on my leader and the style he is leading, crowd conditions (if allowed at all) though most of my training is with the traditional styling of them and that's how I tend to do them most unless dancing completely open.

Yeah... what she said.

 

[LoveTango]

I don't understand why the follower would choose to allow only one half of her leg to be free (apart from the obvious lack of space and the potential danger a free leg can pose, but I believe we're all aware of that). It seems to me that it takes effort (=tension) to keep the thighs together during a high-energy boleo, linear or circular. I believe this tension could cause discomfort to both dancers (but not necessarily).

I.e. my question is: is there a special way to "lead" the follower into making a boleo only from below her knee, or is it a matter of her choice and style?

My opinion: her choice, because I only see the whole-leg boleos around here. We've been taught that way and I lead only those (the circular way).

Interesting observation about myself: I notice that I do frequently return to "thighs together" position, more frequently than many other followers. "Thighs together" feels more natural to me, as part of the collecting. Could this be why my high boleo is mostly limited to below knees.

 

[gniksic]

Personally, I think boleos should be led so that the follower always has the choice of keeping her leg low and even her foot on the floor.
...
A follower is not supposed to "do" a boleo... it's just supposed to "happen".
...
However, in real life as opposed to theory, followers shouldn't be led so that the leader is choosing how high her leg goes ...

What I forgot to add is: "I don't understand why the follower would choose to allow only one half of her leg to be free, given enough energy to do that boleo and wanting to do it that way."

Then we are in agreement. I didn't say that leaders lead the boleo. They DON'T, in my opinion (shouldn't, even). They supply the energy for it and give the direction. A follower who choses not to send her leg sky-high just won't do it. And it's fine. But there is nothing that the leader can (or should) do to influence the height, except providing that amount of energy and the impulse/lead.

What changes in such situations with my lead is this: I see a follower doesn't do high boleos the first time I dare to lead one (never during the first dance, as someone already said) -> I reduce the amount of energy I pump into the boleo just so I wouldn't cause her discomfort (that extra energy has to go somewhere; my assumption: into the tension of the muscles around the pelvis and the thighs) -> we continue doing the boleo with her foot on the floor, i.e. what I called the "slow boleo" because it usually is.

So, your situation, being unable to raise your leg high, somehow wasn't clearly covered by my post...

 

[LoveTango]

My thigh does not raise behind my hip because my hips are too stiff. To raise my thigh in back, I must tip my pelvis forward a corresponding amount.

Same here.

If I try to let the thighs and knees come apart for this type of boleo, it just looks half-arsed and sloppy. So I typically keep my knees pretty close together and the raised "whip" is from my knees down.

That's what happened, except I wasn't doing it consciously.

 

[salthepal]

That is, ignoring any rotation, are they both the same movement but with different levels of energy?

Yes. They both come as a result of a lady's free leg, which should be free from the hip (or above the hip) down. The difference in the lead lies in the upper body.