Low vs. High boleo - leader's choice or follower's choice?

[Zoopsia59]

Yes. They both come as a result of a lady's free leg, which should be free from the hip (or above the hip) down. The difference in the lead lies in the upper body.

I don't understand your answer.. You answer "yes" to Dave's question of "is it the same movement?" but then go on to say that there is a difference in the upper body in the lead? (which implies it isn't the same movement for the leader to do one or the other) Maybe the heat here is making it hard for me to figure out what you are saying.

You also seem to be ignoring the followers who have responded as to why their leg isn't free from the hip for this move and why it's a matter of personal preference whether the boleo involves the thigh (as in the "attitude" position described by myself and Bastet as something we've seen) or happens from the knee down as quite a few of us do it.

There is no "should" that dictates which style is correct. It really does come down to the follower's style, flexibility, and preference.

 

[Subliminal]

Then we are in agreement. I didn't say that leaders lead the boleo. They DON'T, in my opinion (shouldn't, even). They supply the energy for it and give the direction. A follower who choses not to send her leg sky-high just won't do it. And it's fine. But there is nothing that the leader can (or should) do to influence the height, except providing that amount of energy and the impulse/lead.

I disagree with this statement. There is a way to lead a low boleo with higher energy.
Maybe it's not taught often, but it can be done.

I also don't get the first statement either. Supplying the energy and the shape IS a form of lead...

 

[Joe]

the difference in the lead lies partly in the upper body.

ftfy.

 

[gniksic]

There is a way to lead a low boleo with higher energy. Maybe it's not taught often, but it can be done.

Fine, but it's hard for me to visualize that kind of boleo or the amount of energy required. Do you have a video example by any chance? I would appreciate it. So far I've seen only the kind of HE boleos that I'm describing. That's why I am answering to your next question this way:

Supplying the energy and the shape IS a form of lead...

I lead the change of direction, but not the boleo itself.

My point was: I lead my favorite kind of boleos using a decent amount of energy in a circular movement, cut the movement (=lead a change of direction) and that energy gets released into a circlar, potentially sky-high boleo... but I don't move her leg myself. It is the leg's own inertia that raises it, *IF* her leg is relaxed. By the time her leg starts flyin', I'm going the opposite direction. I have no *active* way of controlling where her foot is, SHE does.

So, put shortly, I meant: "I don't raise her leg myself, but supply enough energy for it to happen." She may choose not to. As I said, I believe this to be valid for this kind of boleo. If there is something I'm missing, I'm ready to learn. (Once again, video samples would be helpful, if possible, just to know what we're talking about.)

 

[Peaches]

I lead the change of direction, but not the boleo itself.

My point was: I lead my favorite kind of boleos using a decent amount of energy in a circular movement, cut the movement (=lead a change of direction) and that energy gets released into a circlar, potentially sky-high boleo... but I don't move her leg myself. It is the leg's own inertia that raises it, *IF* her leg is relaxed. By the time her leg starts flyin', I'm going the opposite direction. I have no *active* way of controlling where her foot is, SHE does.

So, put shortly, I meant: "I don't raise her leg myself, but supply enough energy for it to happen." She may choose not to. As I said, I believe this to be valid for this kind of boleo. If there is something I'm missing, I'm ready to learn. (Once again, video samples would be helpful, if possible, just to know what we're talking about.)

Your explanation is true of absolutely everything in tango, and therefore makes no sense as to why you feel you don't lead a boleo. Everything that happens is the result of the man supplying the energy and direction and intention and all of the little "signals" that convey what it is he wants...and all of that is at the woman's discretion to do or not, and every movement is actively controlled by HER. This is the same regardless of if it's a boleo or a walk. So, you DO lead boleos. (Unless, of course, she's just going off into auto-boleo mode, which I'm assuming we're not talking about.)

 

[Zsana]

Hi all,
I am new to the forum in the means of posting, so hello everyone. I only followed up discussions till now, to have an idea of what folks think about the technical and philosophycal aspects of AT, outside of our relatively small tango community in my area. I enjoy your calm debates and reasonings on various topics, sometimes finding verification of my ideas, other times making me thoughtful or even disappointed.

I might be much less experienced a follower with my four years than some others around here, but hey, my skill is just as it is so without the attempt to add technical comment, I would say that leaders can lead low boleos, high boleos or JUST boleos, where there is no instruction on height at all. In that case, I am able to execute any of them comfortably, and I feel both appropriate.
So, to the question whether it is the follower's choice to make high or low boleo, I would say it depends. If the lead offers info on height, than it is not a choice for the follower (unless for some safety/health reasons) and if there is no instruction on height, then I consider it as given for the follower’s choice and free interpretation.

As for low boleo with higher energy, I think amount of energy and direction of energy are two different things. Some leaders truly believe that when they give more impulse, the legs go up. That is just not so. One can give a lot of energy combined with a direction downwards, which will result in a low boleo, naturally.

I would argue on the “inertia thing”. When I truly relax my leg to that point, it would just flap around without any control which is neither nice nor safe, and most likely not good for my balance, either. If the leg’s movement is controlled to make a curve of a boleo, then there is some muscle work included and the leg is not inert any more. Or does the term “controlled inertia” make sense?

And, again, hello everyone

 

[Zoopsia59]

So, put shortly, I meant: "I don't raise her leg myself, but supply enough energy for it to happen." She may choose not to. As I said, I believe this to be valid for this kind of boleo. If there is something I'm missing, I'm ready to learn. (Once again, video samples would be helpful, if possible, just to know what we're talking about.)

I think the confusion is stemming from the way you define "boleo". My impression is that to you, the raising of the leg is the boleo. To some of us, the boleo happens whether or not your foot comes off the floor because the change of direction creates a whipping effect that we, as followers, feel in our BODY.

So when you talk about not leading the boleo, I think you mean you don't lead her leg to lift or not. But to me and some others, there is still a "boleo" even with our foot on the floor. The lifting of the foot is not what we call a "boleo". The whip effect felt all over is the "boleo", hence the possibility of something called a "low boleo".

 

[Zoopsia59]

There is a way to lead a low boleo with higher energy.
Maybe it's not taught often, but it can be done.

I'm not clear on this... the more energy the leader puts into the lead, the more difficult it is for me to keep my foot down. So I guess no one I know has been taught this rare form of lead..

 

[Peaches]

I'm not clear on this... the more energy the leader puts into the lead, the more difficult it is for me to keep my foot down. So I guess no one I know has been taught this rare form of lead..

Yup. We've got one guy around here who manages to lead boleos in such a way that they are almost impossible to abort/resist/keep your foot on the ground. I don't know what in hell he does, but it's effective (not painful, oddly enough). I just wish he had the sense to match his skill so he wouldn't lead the damn things (and other damn things) on most of the floors. Unfortunately, he has been relegated to my Not To Dance With list for this reason.

 

[Zoopsia59]

Yup. We've got one guy around here who manages to lead boleos in such a way that they are almost impossible to abort/resist/keep your foot on the ground. I don't know what in hell he does, but it's effective (not painful, oddly enough). I just wish he had the sense to match his skill so he wouldn't lead the damn things (and other damn things) on most of the floors. Unfortunately, he has been relegated to my Not To Dance With list for this reason.

That is my experience of "high energy" leads as well. I don't understand how a boleo could be high energy and still have the lead intended to clearly be a "low" boleo as she describe

 

[Subliminal]

I'm not clear on this... the more energy the leader puts into the lead, the more difficult it is for me to keep my foot down. So I guess no one I know has been taught this rare form of lead..

I mentioned it earlier in the thread. The lead involves pressing "down" on the follower's standing leg during the boleo. It feels more like a sweeping motion, like your leg is a tail, swishing back and forth. One of my teachers lead me in it when she taught it to me. It would still be possible to lift your leg with this movement, but you would have to fight the lead to do it. (Btw, I said "pressing" but that doesn't mean the lead has to be strong or uncomfortable for it to happen.)

 

[Subliminal]

Fine, but it's hard for me to visualize that kind of boleo or the amount of energy required. Do you have a video example by any chance? I would appreciate it.

No, and I'm not sure a video would show you anything either. It's in the lead.

 

[Zoopsia59]

I mentioned it earlier in the thread. The lead involves pressing "down" on the follower's standing leg during the boleo. It feels more like a sweeping motion, like your leg is a tail, swishing back and forth. One of my teachers lead me in it when she taught it to me. It would still be possible to lift your leg with this movement, but you would have to fight the lead to do it. (Btw, I said "pressing" but that doesn't mean the lead has to be strong or uncomfortable for it to happen.)

Oh, I get it... yes, I've felt this lead, I think. It usually (IME) doesn't have the sudden reversal of direction I associate with a boleo. The change back and forth is smoother so that it is just pivoting back and forth rather than creating a whip effect (again, IME) although the leg might trail the body somewhat in it's change. So i can see how someone might call this a boleo. I don't know that I would however... it probably would depend on how "high energy" it is (as you say)

 

[Subliminal]

Hmm... Pondering my own words and rethinking. Another factor I should mention is the concentration of the energy in the movement. I tend to think of high energy meaning overall size of the movement. But with a boleo a small amount of energy concentrated in a sharper motion can result in a "high energy" feeling from the follower's perspective. I think the low boleo feeling comes from either spreading this energy out over a larger moment in time, and/or redirecting part of it into the floor. Which I guess from the follower's perspective could be seen as a low energy movement...

I dunno. I'll have to practice it and get back to you.

 

[Subliminal]

Looks like we cross-posted Zoops. But I think we agree on the movement, if not what to call it. I consider that a victory for both of us on a tango forum.