Macho Culture in Dance

[JournalInTime]

But what could be the other, more human alternatives?

Walk down a long row of followers and dance with the ones who are good dance partners for you?

You can't dance with everyone, because there simply aren't enough tandas at the milonga, milongas in the week, or hours in the day – nobody capable of basic math would ever deny that! However, you can pick your partners based on situationally appropriate standards rather that situationally inappropriate standards. At a dance event, dance skill and/or dance compatibility are always appropriate. If you set those aside because your real reason for being there is to meet, hug, and perhaps date attractive people, you're introducing attitudes that could cause the sorts of problems that lead to labels like "macho."

Objectification isn't a question of some standards being objectively invalid at all times. It's about judging by situationally inappropriate standards. It isn't objectification to recruit the tallest person for a basketball team, the highest-earning investor to manage your portfolio, or prettiest girl to play Helen of Troy in your movie. It's objectification to pick the pretty girl for all of those roles just because you want to watch a pretty girl running around the court in athletic wear and want her sitting next to you discussing investment opportunities.

The only option I have come up with is to close my dance circle totally and dance just with a handful friends. Everybody knows that I dance just with them. This minimizes the disappointments mostly to zero.

I mostly dance with friends. That isn't about objectification, snobbery, or avoiding those things. It's about finding it more useful to invest in learning the habits and styles of a small group of people well so I can dance with them at a high level than to invest in learning to read all habits and styles well enough so I can dance with anybody at an adequate level. Dance level is a totally acceptable standard at a dance event, even if some people dislike it.

 

[Rabbit]

Those who isolate themselves don't prevent anyone from dancing, and those who feel disturbed don't take enough care of their own affairs. But it goes against your interests as a community builder, and so you instinctively apply your standards of value to justify such devaluation.

Well, it doesn't bother me as a dancer, I already implicitly rejected all the closed circles myself. My issue is it contributes to negative perceptions of tango in the wider dance community and creates "traps" where people can have a bad experience if they don't know where to avoid.

 

[itwillhappen]

I mostly dance with friends.

Could one say that we've all thought a lot about complex issues, come up with elaborated justifications - and in the end we're all dancing mostly with friends? Which is also quite appropriate for a milonga?

 

[itwillhappen]

Well, it doesn't bother me as a dancer, I already implicitly rejected all the closed circles myself.

Just perceive such a closed circle as a group of friends and it's ok.

 

[JournalInTime]

Could one say that we've all thought a lot about complex issues, come up with elaborate justifications - and in the end we're all dancing mostly with friends? Which is also quite appropriate for a milonga?

If they're truly friends, then sure, why not? If they're "friends" rather than friends, though . . . well, justifying anything by saying, "We're friends, so it's fine" when you aren't friends and it isn't fine strikes me as just, I don't know, creepy.

I word it this way because I know at least one guy who plays this game with women met at the milonga: They are his "friends" right up until he learns that they see him as "just a friend" and not as "more than a friend," at which point he cuts them off and they aren't even visible to him. That right there is some creepy, high-octane macho garbage.

 

[itwillhappen]

If they're truly friends, then sure, why not? If they're "friends" rather than friends, though . . . well, justifying anything by saying, "We're friends, so it's fine" when you aren't friends and it isn't fine strikes me as just, I don't know, creepy.

I feel the same way. But the inner circles, the status groups, including macho milongueros and their favorite dance partners, will actually see themselves as a group of old (and new) friends.

 

[JournalInTime]

I feel the same way. But the inner circles, the status groups, including macho milongueros and their favorite dance partners, will actually see themselves as a group of old (and new) friends.

If a group of consenting adults wants to play lords and ladies, dudes and babes, guys and dolls, princes and princesses, machos and divas, or whatever, that's their call! I know groups like that: To belong, women must be exaggerated feminine stereotypes (pouting, gossiping, sipping white wine, and wearing makeup, perfume, jewelry, dresses, heels, etc.), fake displays of weakness and helplessness, and be possessive of and constantly flirt with the men, while the men must be exaggerated masculine stereotypes (flexing, smoking cigars, drinking liquor, and talking about cars, hunting, sports, who'd win in a war, etc.), put on exaggerated shows of gallantry, and be overprotective of and constantly flirt with the women. It makes me roll my eyes, but I don't have to play their game . . . I just warn newcomers about the game those people are playing, so they know it isn't a problem with the region, city, or event, but with a small group.

 

[Miradamiranda]

This has been very… uhmm *interesting* for me to read your justifications for only dancing with the same small circle of friends all the time. Because when I observe people dancing over and over with the same partners, I think:

- they are probably afraid of getting out of their comfort zone…

- how are they ever going to know if what they are leading is actually lead and not that the follower just knows the lead so well that she knows what’s coming, or from the follower’s side, getting bad habits of anticipating because you know exactly what is coming…

- how do they manage when they are alone in a new city where they know nobody, or do they simply avoid such an uncomfortable situation, because they might suddenly realize the are not as good as they thought. Oh what they must be missing out on and not even know…

- aren't they curious to experience different types of partners, because everyone has a completely different personality, and isn’t the discovery of a new partner’s approach at least as essential a part of tango as developing a common vocabulary with just a few partners…

-sticking to only few partners, does that also mean they stick to a very narrow stylistic approach in stead of enjoying the variety of many partners and styles…

- maybe they are socially just as ‘closed off’ to meeting new people outside of the tango world…

- maybe they have a significant other present and that this other person would feel threatened by his/her partner meeting someone new on the dance floor…

So, my thoughts have definitely gone in the critical direction while observing, so that’s why your arguments of having obligations to friends’ expectations and some of your other arguments make me see it’s not ALL negative.

Although a bit off-topic, re: machismo, your comments above triggered this. I’d have thought the machismo attitude would have leaned more in the direction of ever new conquests on the dance floor being an ego-boosting thing. Well, certainly some scenes have reputations of being a lot more cliquey than other more welcoming ones.

 

[Miradamiranda]

wearing makeup, perfume, jewelry, dresses, heels, etc.

Please! No perfume! Except if you want your partner to be sneezing or coughing all over you. I’m happy most people in my home scenes comply. But then when you get that one or two partners who do wear perfume, it’s really really noticeable. I have one partner I knickname Mr Perfume. And another Mr Mothballs because some outfits had stayed a few too many months/years in a closet during the pandemic. Sorry, again off-topic..

 

[JournalInTime]

Please! No perfume!

Hear, hear! I'm allergic to just about all of it.

I have one partner I knickname Mr Perfume.

We have one here, too. I can detect his arrival at the door from the farthest reaches of the dance floor. I can tell when he danced with a follower who danced with a leader who danced with a follower who danced with a leader who danced with my follower, too . . . it's the curse that keeps on cursing.

And another Mr Mothballs because some outfits had stayed a few too many months/years in a closet during the pandemic.

My girlfriend has informed me that we have a Mr. Incense as well. "He smells like an old church."

 

[JournalInTime]

This has been very… uhmm *interesting* for me to read your justifications for only dancing with the same small circle of friends all the time.

We must be extremely careful to distinguish "only with a small circle of friends" from "mostly with friends," though.

I dance mostly with friends. In the average week of tango, that's 25-35 different followers, and not the same 25-35 followers from week to week. I once counted up my tanguera friends who are both local (not all are!) and on Facebook (some don't use it!), and it was 100+ people. With that many on-again, off-again partners, I'd call my comfort zone large and my partners stylistically varied and representative enough to confirm that I can lead what I lead for real. I wouldn't characterize that as "a small circle."

If no friends are present because I'm away or at an event I rarely attend, or they don't show up, I don't go home without dancing. I dance with whoever is present. I didn't make 100+ local tanguera friends by never dancing with anybody new. I made them by dancing with people I didn't know before we became friends. It isn't "only," just "mostly."

Being a writer and editor, I regard the precise choice of words as important. To me, if "only with a small circle of friends" is at 1 and "with anybody" is at 10, "mostly with friends" is at around 5-6.

 

[pianistamediano]

Please! No perfume! Except if you want your partner to be sneezing or coughing all over you. I’m happy most people in my home scenes comply. But then when you get that one or two partners who do wear perfume, it’s really really noticeable. I have one partner I knickname Mr Perfume. And another Mr Mothballs because some outfits had stayed a few too many months/years in a closet during the pandemic. Sorry, again off-topic..

A little eau de parfum/toilette goes a long way — too many men ignore the properties of cologne/perfume: their sillage, longevity, even appropriateness for the occasion and their seasonal nature. Moreover, they tend to put on too much, and expect their partners to be able to breath in the smog while dancing.

 

[JournalInTime]

A little eau de parfum/toilette goes a long way — too many men ignore the properties of cologne/perfume: their sillage, longevity, even appropriateness for the occasion and their seasonal nature. Moreover, they tend to put on too much, and expect their partners to be able to breath in the smog while dancing.

Yuck.

I shave with cedar-menthol-smelling soap, and wash and condition my hair with chamomile and rose water products . . . but these get rinsed off completely. I brush my teeth and rinse my mouth with other menthol-scented products . . . which I spit out. And I wear an antiperspirant with woody-citrus notes that are explicitly marketed as "subtle." Once I'm done, I smell vaguely herbal and minty, but it really is vague. Mostly, I don't smell dirty. Why I'd then want to blast myself with Eau de Gas Attack, I have no idea.

I have no idea if that makes me more or less macho.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

I do agree that, in a less formal milonga, how either gender dresses has little impact.

Although I knew a guy, good dancer, who always wore a suit and tie, who refused to dance with a woman wearing trousers.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

As I said, for guys there isn’t much of a correlation. For women, if we are not styled up super over-the-top sexy, we don’t get many dances.

That's not at all true from my observation. Very few women at our local milongas dress "over-the-top sexy," most are quite conservatively dressed, in fact. Many wear trousers. If they're good, they dance. Age is a far greater determinant, for both men and women, than dress.