Most of the teachers I come across when they advocate a heel or toe landing consistantly during a walk, advocate the heel on the basis that it the most natural way and where teachers I have come across talk about a toe landing say that this skill comes from their ballet training rather than anything they have learned in Tango and is very difficult to do properly.
Man's Walk: Porteños and Panthers
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Most of the teachers I come across when they advocate a heel or toe landing consistantly during a walk, advocate the heel on the basis that it the most natural way and where teachers I have come across talk about a toe landing say that this skill comes from their ballet training rather than anything they have learned in Tango and is very difficult to do properly.
Now here are two contradicting statements:
Leaving aside the fact that my whole approach is to do with the fact
that the man is indeed walking with a lady attached to his chest,
here's the other one.
Of course there's no rule. There is no rule that we should walk around the floor
attached to each other at the chest. It certainly isn't natural to walk into
your partner either. So we need the best way to make that work.
Sorry, but waffling around saying anything will do isn't good enough.
Well not for me. I see soft walks, upright walks, bent leg walks, heel leads
and even sliding ballroom type toe/ball leads but most of them do not
walk with any commitment or drive. It just isn't my kind of Tango.
Milonguero is in the ascendancy in BsAs, even in the VU home of the Sunderland Club,
because it works for people who want to embrace and dance together to the music.
I believe that in that style I can best transmit an interpretation of the music to my partner.
So, agreeing with Peaches about tone, posture, presence and projection
(all of which I've mentioned before elsewhere), my walk preference for entirely
practical reasons is a straight-legged, soft kneed, and a solid whole foot landing.
So lean forward and commit to the floor. And always solidly land on the compas.
Leaving aside the fact that my whole approach is to do with the fact
that the man is indeed walking with a lady attached to his chest,
here's the other one.
Of course there's no rule. There is no rule that we should walk around the floor
attached to each other at the chest. It certainly isn't natural to walk into
your partner either. So we need the best way to make that work.
Sorry, but waffling around saying anything will do isn't good enough.
Well not for me. I see soft walks, upright walks, bent leg walks, heel leads
and even sliding ballroom type toe/ball leads but most of them do not
walk with any commitment or drive. It just isn't my kind of Tango.
Milonguero is in the ascendancy in BsAs, even in the VU home of the Sunderland Club,
because it works for people who want to embrace and dance together to the music.
I believe that in that style I can best transmit an interpretation of the music to my partner.
So, agreeing with Peaches about tone, posture, presence and projection
(all of which I've mentioned before elsewhere), my walk preference for entirely
practical reasons is a straight-legged, soft kneed, and a solid whole foot landing.
So lean forward and commit to the floor. And always solidly land on the compas.
You mean this one:
I always get the impression watching Osvaldo that he's probably a fun guy
to be around.
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For all of this:
Yup, you may need to know this:
Rick McGarrey makes no mention of the importance of shoes and to
milongueros who have danced for 50+ years they may not seem important.
The heavy footed walk may even have partly come about from dancing
in street shoes.
From what I have seen of Buenos Aires shoes they may have higher heels
anyway than ours. And certainly higher than most of our dance shoes.
We have different dance shoe designs for different dances.
Ballroom shoes have low heels to encourage leaning backwards but we need
a shoe to encourage leaning forwards. The heel must not be too high
or it gets in the way of the whole foot landing walk and could destabilise you
by tilting you too far forward. We need stability to give confidence to our partner
so you need to be able to lean forward with a weighted heel.
All of this for what in essence is supposed to be a simple people's dance.
Having played with three different types of shoes, my most successful yet
has been pair of DanceStep Equity shoes (now owned by Freed I think)
modified with lift wedge under the heels.
You can play with cut up insoles under within the shoe as a heel lift
to get the idea but you will lose arch support so I prefer this method.
Get hold of the shoe and roll it forward so the sole is flat to the surface.
That simulates the effect of your weight being forward. If the heel
is not in contact with the surface it's that space that needs infilling.
Like everything in tango you need to find your own solution.
If you can find a shoe that already provides that stable platform without
modification, count yourself lucky. I've had no luck buying shoes from BsAs.
I also know of a teacher who approached the problem from the opposite direction.
He bought cuban heels, which are higher, and had them lowered.
He also wanted a raked back heel but then I no longer walk like him.
What I can tell you though, is the milonguero walk is at its most natural
when wearing the right shoes.
You know the saying about it being a bad workman
that blames his tools. Well, we need the right shoes.
Re: Heel v Ball: Again, I like Rick McGarrey's point that if you land on the heel then put the ball down, you aren't hitting the compás exactly - there's a sixth of a second (somewhere around that fraction, anyway) between both parts of the foot arriving.
I'm liking the foot hitting flat and definitely, exactly on the beat (if I choose to step on the beat), in the walk.... Seems to be making life a bit easier for the followers too, since the step is so definite.
Yup, you may need to know this:
Leaving aside fears of being flamed . . . . .
Rick McGarrey makes no mention of the importance of shoes and to
milongueros who have danced for 50+ years they may not seem important.
The heavy footed walk may even have partly come about from dancing
in street shoes.
From what I have seen of Buenos Aires shoes they may have higher heels
anyway than ours. And certainly higher than most of our dance shoes.
We have different dance shoe designs for different dances.
Ballroom shoes have low heels to encourage leaning backwards but we need
a shoe to encourage leaning forwards. The heel must not be too high
or it gets in the way of the whole foot landing walk and could destabilise you
by tilting you too far forward. We need stability to give confidence to our partner
so you need to be able to lean forward with a weighted heel.
All of this for what in essence is supposed to be a simple people's dance.
Having played with three different types of shoes, my most successful yet
has been pair of DanceStep Equity shoes (now owned by Freed I think)
modified with lift wedge under the heels.
You can play with cut up insoles under within the shoe as a heel lift
to get the idea but you will lose arch support so I prefer this method.
Get hold of the shoe and roll it forward so the sole is flat to the surface.
That simulates the effect of your weight being forward. If the heel
is not in contact with the surface it's that space that needs infilling.
Like everything in tango you need to find your own solution.
If you can find a shoe that already provides that stable platform without
modification, count yourself lucky. I've had no luck buying shoes from BsAs.
I also know of a teacher who approached the problem from the opposite direction.
He bought cuban heels, which are higher, and had them lowered.
He also wanted a raked back heel but then I no longer walk like him.
What I can tell you though, is the milonguero walk is at its most natural
when wearing the right shoes.
You know the saying about it being a bad workman
that blames his tools. Well, we need the right shoes.
Re: Above video: Which brings me to another walk question that I wanted to ask: I assumed - and have been taught - that on the occasion that the man walks backwards, he should walk exactly as the woman does, and for the same functional reasons.
But in the video above (and some other Ricardo Vidort videos where he walks backwards), this isn't happening... is this a 'masculine' thing? Like, the woman's walk is too graceful and feline - 'feminine' - for a proud Porteño?
How do you guys do this?
But in the video above (and some other Ricardo Vidort videos where he walks backwards), this isn't happening... is this a 'masculine' thing? Like, the woman's walk is too graceful and feline - 'feminine' - for a proud Porteño?
How do you guys do this?
We had this discussion before and it generated plenty of dissenting opinion.
I think if the couple is dancing apilado (pressing toward each other), the woman can only walk backwards if the man drives the movement. Only his legs are in a position to apply the necessary force.
When the man walks backwards the woman has to apply the required force, but they rarely do this, so the configuration of the embrace has to change. I think this is what you are seeing. If the man is going to walk backwards, either his partner has to do the pushing, or he has to stand more upright in order to draw her into the movement.
I recall Peaches said her teacher told her to push (damn it), and then it worked. As I mentioned, IME, most women don't apply the driving energy that is necessary. It's really nice when they do.
Spot on, AndaBien.
Yes, they do. But the tango you learn there is very different than what you will learn from "mainstream" or what I've started calling contemporary Argentine Tango, for lack of better terms.
AndaBien: Ah, that makes perfect sense, cheers. It's just that in the videos (and no disrespect intended!) the backwards walks look almost apologetic and half-hearted, rather than the proud reaching out of the female walk... dunno, our teacher has us all spending so much time walking backwards the 'female' way that I've got really good at it... in fact, it's the only thing in Tango that I can do extremely well - so it'd be a shame to stop doing it that way.
JohnEm: Much indebted for your shoes explanation!
I suppose people might quibble about the extent to which shoes can make a difference, at different levels of proficiency: but they'll clearly make some difference, so I hope you don't get flamed! Even if it's only 1 to 5%, on top of the hard work etc, I'll take it!
I just checked out my shoes, doing that test you mentioned - and the heel is really lacking... it's explained something about how I've been going slightly wrong in my stance: nice one!
I did a search for those shoes that you mentioned, but the only DanceStep Equity I found was a woman's shoe. Would you mind finding me a link to the ones you mean?
I must admit that I'm sorely tempted by Werner Kern's Belgranos:-
[Still too newb on DF for links....]
http://web.archive.org/web/20101206022344/http://www.thewernerkernshack.co.uk/View/148/Belgrano/
What do you reckon? I know almost nothing about dance shoes, but am a sucker for black and red
, and am working on the principle of the other workman cliché: 'a workman is only as good as his tools': When I paint, I use only Winsor & Newton Series 7 brushes (and really notice the difference!) - same thing here?
JohnEm: Much indebted for your shoes explanation!
I suppose people might quibble about the extent to which shoes can make a difference, at different levels of proficiency: but they'll clearly make some difference, so I hope you don't get flamed! Even if it's only 1 to 5%, on top of the hard work etc, I'll take it!I just checked out my shoes, doing that test you mentioned - and the heel is really lacking... it's explained something about how I've been going slightly wrong in my stance: nice one!
I did a search for those shoes that you mentioned, but the only DanceStep Equity I found was a woman's shoe. Would you mind finding me a link to the ones you mean?
I must admit that I'm sorely tempted by Werner Kern's Belgranos:-
[Still too newb on DF for links....]
http://web.archive.org/web/20101206022344/http://www.thewernerkernshack.co.uk/View/148/Belgrano/
What do you reckon? I know almost nothing about dance shoes, but am a sucker for black and red
, and am working on the principle of the other workman cliché: 'a workman is only as good as his tools': When I paint, I use only Winsor & Newton Series 7 brushes (and really notice the difference!) - same thing here?
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I know of no ballroom technique that calls for 'sliding ballroom type' movements.
What? The correct posture for all of the ballroom dances is to have a forward balance. No ballroom dancer should ever lean backwards. What odd ideas you tango dancers have about the rest of us!
Ok, here's another simple thing to try at home.JohnEm: Much indebted for your shoes explanation!
I just checked out my shoes, doing that test you mentioned - and the heel is really lacking... it's explained something about how I've been going slightly wrong in my stance: nice one!
Wearing these shoes try standing with the back half of the heel
on a piece of hardboard or little pile of cardboard.
You're looking for enough height so that when you lean forward
you can have a weighted heel - taking say 30% of your weight
and retaining a little weight bias onto the balls of your feet.
You should feel much more stable. Think of your shoes as the platform
for you and that you are the platform for your partner. If you have
no heel support you cannot feel stable to yourself or your partner.
She needs to have sufficient confidence in you that she can place
her security in your care and concentrate on the dance.
With right heel you will end up naturally biased to effortlessly
and comfortably lean forward. Yet it doesn't require a heel that
attracts attention to itself because of its obvious height. In fact
the best heel to me seems to a combination of a little extra height
and increase in heel ramp so my final wedges were 3mm rising
to 6mm at the rear. This is a guide only as I could have tried
4mm rising to 8mm but erred on the side of caution, correctly
as it happened. Like our bodies, shoes aren't rigid and you have
to use your own judgement to suit your own experience.
The shoes were these I think:
The was a product at qualitydance.com called the Kelly but seems to be removed. Possibly the product number was 0905282304
in plain black leather so nothing exciting!
Search for Equity Freed for more results.
Continuing the workman analogy:I must admit that I'm sorely tempted by Werner Kern's Belgranos:-
[Still too newb on DF for links....] - ah, but I'm not!
http://web.archive.org/web/20101206022344/http://www.thewernerkernshack.co.uk/View/148/Belgrano/
What do you reckon? I know almost nothing about dance shoes, but am a sucker for black and red
The very best workmen have the right tools for the job
and then let the work speak for itself.
By the way my Werner Kern ballroom shoes which I first used for Tango
were/are these:
http://web.archive.org/web/20101006020535/http://www.thewernerkernshack.co.uk/View/120/28013 - super comfort wide/
and their low heel bias my weight backwards if anything.
My recommendation is experiment with what you have so you can work
out what it you need. Be prepared to have them modified discreetly
but at least you can decide armed with that knowledge.
Hope this helps.
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Dave Bailey
Active Member
This point is something I've begun to emphasize with my classes also.
Firstly, there's no such thing as a "natural walk backwards", so the whole "walk naturally" meme is rubbish. Secondly, if you were to walk backwards, your natural walk would be to throw your weight back and fall onto it - that takes the least effort, after all.
So followers need to learn an extremely unnatural way of walking, and it takes a long time to get that working naturally.
So one thing I try to do at the very start is to get followers leaning forwards as much as possible, ignoring the whole "remain on your axis" thing at the start, simply because that particular "lean forward whilst walking backwards" aspect seems to be so difficult to master.
Dave Bailey
Active Member
Your ho is wrong.
IMHO
Mmm, not sure if I'd pay much attention to what they say, because I suspect their recommendations are based on their primarily-ballroom experience, which has a totally different posture.
(I'm tempted to re-post the Corky Ballas vid at this point
)That said:
When learning, I think walking heel first is best, simply because that is more natural. Also, it's easier to roll through the length of the feet, which means that the walk (and the lead) is smoother. I think walking toe first correctly requires more technique, discipline and effort.
When I'm teaching, I emphasize that there really is no "right / wrong" way to walk; but as I said, I recommend that people learn the "heel first" method initially, because I think it's easier to provide a good lead that way.
Dave Bailey
Active Member
Well, if by ignoring them, you are discounting walking on either the Heel or the Toe, you have to come up with an alternative: there aren't many.
Totally different posture? Very far from convinced. Most tango dancers seem to know next to nothing about ballroom dancing, but hold strong opinions about it.
Primarily ballroom experience? Not really. Certainly with my lot, ballroom is less than 5% of the whole. Ballet, Tap & Freestyle dominate. Ballroom has been backwater for decades. Comparisons with Latin American technique are often more profitable. Tango is, after all, a Latin dance.