Man's Walk: Porteños and Panthers

[JohnEm]

Sure, I have assumptions about AT that come from my extensive ballroom + latin training, but as someone who dances in over fifteen styles, most of which I teach, I'm quite adaptable, and very eager to see (and understand) the differences, as well as the similarities.

Having assumptions is not the sole preserve of the 'ballroom' dancer (although there IS no ballroom dance), and some assumptions bear closer scrutiny than others.

I for one see no point in all this.
As an ex ballroom dancer, no matter how disparaging you seem to be,
it's best to treat AT separately with different technique & posture.
It fits no classification, it wasn't designed to as it wasn't designed at all.
It evolved in the circumstances of the River Plate area.

Of course if you start drawing comparisons & introduce techniques that
you already know from ballroom, you are as guilty as any one of countless teachers
from other dance forms who bring their experiences, attitudes and styles to AT.

BTW, a lady in a typical ballroom poise, dancing AT in open embrace, might look a bit odd, but if she has the correct forward balance (common to both AT + ballroom), she will get on, just fine.

If I could be bothered I would challenge this.
I'll leave it with the comment that in my experience
ladies who dance ballroom quite satisfactorily can have
a real challenge when they try AT milonguero style.
And using myself as an example, it applies to men too.

Dancing the homogenised, so-called elegant stepping VU/modern Tango
then you can get away with almost anything. But it's not my tango.

 

[Zoopsia59]

Your ho is wrong.

On this side of the pond, "Ho" means something very different. So I did a doubletake when I read your post. :shock:

I'm tempted to re-post the Corky Ballas vid at this point

Oh please don't! If you MUST, please post clearly that it is the Corky Ballas vid so I don't watch it by accident. I'm just not ready to see it again... it's too soon... must recover from previous viewing trauma first. Shudder.

 

[JohnEm]

The follower's backwards walk is actually what would be natural if you were walking backwards down an incline. (which would require you to keep your weight forward to avoid losing control and falling backwards)

Try it (without the road box) Backwards walking with forward pressure will make a lot more sense once you've felt it on an incline.

Nice one Zoopsia, thanks.

Must now encourage a partner to find a steep hill . . .
. . . . and to ignore the odd looks of passers by.

 

[dchester]

Oh please don't! If you MUST, please post clearly that it is the Corky Ballas vid so I don't watch it by accident. I'm just not ready to see it again... it's too soon... must recover from previous viewing trauma first. Shudder.

Yeah, I almost lost my lunch after seeing that thing.

:?

 

[ant]

The arm(s) shouldn't be stiff - that's just a fault.

I believe i said stiffer. I hold my arms much looser in AT than BR

The hold is 'bigger' and makes a different shape. It still has the purpose of making a connection between the partners.

I agree but the connection is different. In my opinion that is because it allows for greater control with the intention of the lead in BR. Which is at the end of the day is I think one of the biggest differences. I consider an AT lead much more of an invitation to the follower to accept and I am far more prepared for a different response than that expected compared to a lead in BR. Basically because I think AT is far more improvisational and BR sequentual. So the connections have to do slightly different jobs.

The ballroom tango hold is significantly different from the others, though, and is characterised by a much more 'compact' frame, and the man's RH much further around the lady (in the middle of her back, usually), and is really quite close to an open embrace.

Different maybe but far more akin to BR than AT.

I agree the frame is more compact but the characteristics of wide elbows, stiffer arms, connection in the stomach area and space in the upper body and head are still there.

This comes from the shape of the frame, but the distance is similar to an open embrace.

I agree because in OE the frame is used more like you would do in BR but again the intention within the lead is different and therefore has to be adjusted for in the frame/embrace.

I would say that the torso is the source of both. The point of contact is different (or may be wholly absent).

I accept the core is in the same but the use of the torso is different.

We have Contrary Body Movement (and a related foot position, CBMP) in ballroom, which isn't really the same thing as dissociation. They do share some physical similarities, but really have a different purpose, equally valid in their respective contexts

I agree that is why I put "disociation" in quotations the first time I used it.

 

[UKDancer]

I for one see no point in all this.

You must decide that for yourself. But it irks a bit that tango dancers only ever seem to refer to 'ballroom' in order to be desparaging. Perhaps they are deeply insecure people.

I enjoy all the styles in which I dance. AT more than some, less than others. Its a big world. Even Morris Dancing satisfies some.

 

[Zoopsia59]

I really couldn't care less about whether the tango, paso doble, or the chacarera, is categorized as a latin dance or not.

Well since chacarera is a folk dance and morris dancing is also a folk dance (isn't it?) then I suppose those 2 should be in the same category despite being from different geographies, and we'll divide the categories by the income or "class" levels of the people who danced them.

Oh wait... that IS how many of the different dances evolved!
:doh:

 

[dchester]

I was trying to answer the question, not argue, because for me, there are significant similarities between AT walks (a big chunk of the dance) and Latin technique.

OK, sorry. I thought when you quoted my post in your reply, that you were addressing it to me.

 

[ant]

I was trying to answer the question, not argue, because for me, there are significant similarities between AT walks (a big chunk of the dance) and Latin technique.

I agree that there are similar knee actions between the Latin dances, if you would walk using those knee actions, I would say Cha Cha Cha and Rumba especially and some of the AT walks.Including one of the walks featured on the OP.

 

[v22TTC]

The follower's backwards walk is actually what would be natural if you were walking backwards down an incline. (which would require you to keep your weight forward to avoid losing control and falling backwards)

Good work! That'll be remembered!

I think I'm clean out now!! Just try it all for yourself as you are doing.

Then thanks for all that - it's been stored in my Golden Advice file.

Basically you were attempting to balance on the balls of your feet; it's possible but not ideal for the circumstances we find ourselves.

I was actually trying to balance TA-properly - as you described - and thought that I was; I just didn't realise that my heels were hardly touching the deck because I'm so used to balancing on the ball (most people would have staggered or wobbled or something, as a signal)... this is where private lessons are so invaluable to have stuff like this picked up on: no chance in these large group classes, that are the only things available (and why you guys are such an amazingly helpful source of knowledge).

Not sure about this as I can't commit forward reliably in bare feet. You may find that in practice all sorts of strange work around things are actually going on.

Dunno... I think my (solo) practice technique's good (though it's difficult to really know, despite mirrors etc), which is mostly as a result of having trained and exercised myself to be aware of how I move and balance, and increasing my flexibility etc... most of it applies to Tango, though it has to be flipped upside down first, usually.

I suppose that I know where I am with my stockinged feet, but my (newish) shoes didn't give me the feedback that my muscles and bones did, and I wasn't mindful enough of them and the effect that they were having (I think the sole's curvature and stiffness were the problems).

The level of detail of awareness that you have to get down to in TA really is like nothing I've ever known before (for something physical). Genuinely awesome: what an endlessy fascinating journey....

 

[Dave Bailey]

Well that would be at about the usual level of sophistication when it comes to the average tango dancer having an opinion about ballroom dancing in general.

Probably

It is interesting that AT is a unique dance, whereas all of the dances we know as ballroom + most of the ones we know as Latin all get conveniently lumped together as 'ballroom'.

As I'm sure you know, such a lumping is very artificial. Samba and Jive don't have much in common, despite being in the "Latin" bracket - similarly, Waltz and Quickstep. Although I feel that the 5 "ballroom" dances have more in common than the 5 "Latin" ones, but that's just my outsider opinion.

BTW, a lady in a typical ballroom poise, dancing AT in open embrace, might look a bit odd, but if she has the correct forward balance (common to both AT + ballroom), she will get on, just fine.

I admit, that I'd like to see...

Corky is, indeed, laughably bad: but then he isn't a ballroom dancer, and we could readily agree that everything about his presentation of the dance is just awful!

I think we can all come together on that one

 

[JohnEm]

You must decide that for yourself. But it irks a bit that tango dancers only ever seem to refer to 'ballroom' in order to be desparaging. Perhaps they are deeply insecure people.

There you go again with a wildly inaccurate observation.

I haven't noticed such disparaging of ballroom.
I have noticed you disparaging your perceived tango attitudes.

Tango dancers generally seem to be quick to distance AT from ballroom
and coming from a world of different dances, including ballroom and latin,
that differentiation is a valid and positively helpful response.

You seem to wish to find the common ground which I rather think is just
misleading to both yourself and others.

 

[Dave Bailey]

The follower's backwards walk is actually what would be natural if you were walking backwards down an incline. (which would require you to keep your weight forward to avoid losing control and falling backwards)

Excellent description - thanks, I'll nick that one

 

[Dave Bailey]

But it irks a bit that tango dancers only ever seem to refer to 'ballroom' in order to be desparaging.

I don't - I'm not sure if anyone else here has either.

I'm sure attaining competence in all 10+ BR dances is much much harder than attaining competence in AT. But I think that learning competence in AT is probably harder than learning competence in any 1 BR dance - I may be totally wrong in that of course.

Perhaps they are deeply insecure people.

Probably. I know I am.

 

[ant]

You must decide that for yourself. But it irks a bit that tango dancers only ever seem to refer to 'ballroom' in order to be desparaging. Perhaps they are deeply insecure people.

In my opinion any desparaging vibes that you may be picking up come from AT people regarding BR is nothing to do with BR as a dance but the attempts of, most BR teachers who try to teach AT, using their BR methods, without a proper knowledge and foundation of AT and to a lesser extent BR dancers trying to extrapolate their BR knowledge to AT. I don't see the reverse flow.

The views of AT people in this regard come from experience and the knowledge that gives.