Miles apart embrace

[LadyLeader]

No, stepping on the beat is the main rule in tango musicality.

I can't connect with a woman who doesn't step on the beat.
There is a lady who has taken numerous classes with her partner and who visits every milonga here. I invited her recently to a milonga tanda. I couldn't dance with her, we were not synchronized. Then, I watched her dancing with her partner. Surely, he didn't care about the music.

Then, there are musical phrases in a song. It's graceful to start your first step with the beginning of a phrase. But he misses it and steps afterwards.

As this topic is about the close embrace, I would say that he looks down, he must look forward.

A leaders skill and musicality is not always visible for the onlookers. Therefore i wonder how you find her dancing and musicality?

To me it looks that she is able to keep her continuous flow all the time, no surprises or jerks caused by the leader. He is skilled to provided a space for her. I liked the performance so much that i lost my focus all the time and was drifted away enjoying the dance instead so my observations are not really reliable!

 

[TomTango]

I disagree. He's absolutely listening to the music. He's using both the rhythm and the melody in his dancing, which is far more interesting than simply looking for beats to step on, which will make you look a little mechanical. He maintains the embrace throughout; there's no need to do otherwise. Keeps his steps relatively small and small and leads his partner comfortably around the floor. I think he's moving about as fast as he needs to be moving; you could even easily slow this down on the pista.

I agree. Tanturi/Campos is one of those middle ground pairings with a strong rhythmic and lyrical line. to emphasize the lyrical, you often have to deliberately step off the main beat. He's more stepping to the violins.

I attended a Noelia and Carlitos workshop a few weeks ago in Seattle, and there was an entire class on these "middle ground" orchestras, like Tanturi/Campos or Calo/Iriarte. They mentioned that people are usually good at dancing to the extreme rhythmic/dramatic, D'Arienzo/Pugliese, but often struggle when it comes to the middle. They tend to dance too rhythmic or too lyrical instead of actually dancing in the middle.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

I attended a Noelia and Carlitos workshop a few weeks ago in Seattle, and there was an entire class on these "middle ground" orchestras, like Tanturi/Campos or Calo/Iriarte. They mentioned that people are usually good at dancing to the extreme rhythmic/dramatic, D'Arienzo/Pugliese, but often struggle when it comes to the middle. They tend to dance too rhythmic or too lyrical instead of actually dancing in the middle.

Did you like their workshop? They were here in town recently but I couldn't attend it (was called a seminar) because it was over a four-day period. I've been told they're good with students.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

No, stepping on the beat is the main rule in tango musicality.

Well, I respectfully disagree. You can dance to the beat (if you choose), or the melody, or the lyrics. These will give different results on the dance floor.

 

[tangobro]

I only count the woman's jump as a performance element in the combination. Everything else is pretty standard and nice.

I attended that Jorge Torres vals workshop. I have seen Jorge Torres do many performances, and I often have seen him dance socially. I have never seen him lead the woman's jump in his performances at milongas or in social dancing. In that portion of the workshop he selected one of the students in the workshop and led the jump and kick as a means of demonstrating what could be done with a relaxed follower who allows her free legs to respond to the lead, and how a lead in different directions, (including up) can be generated with subtlety. It was not choreographed, she did not know it was coming.

Torres is a good tango performer, but not a social dancer. A performer exaggerates each step by lifting the feet off the floor for the audience; a milonguero keeps the feet quiet and on the floor.

In the times that I have seen Jorge Torres dance socially in milongas I have not seen him lifting his feet off the floor, although he does in performances. In classes that I have taken with Jorge Torres he stresses that there are differences between performance and social dance, and stresses that performance elements should not be used on the social dance floor.

 

[opendoor]

No, stepping on the beat is the main rule in tango musicality..

No it isn't, but perhaps you confused "on the beat" and "in the beat".

 

[newbie]

The guy doesn't listen to the music at all. Though, the music is pretty fast, he moves sluggishly and off the beats.

There are many layers in the music, and compas is only one of them. To me it seems that he does listen to the music.

 

[TomTango]

Did you like their workshop? They were here in town recently but I couldn't attend it (was called a seminar) because it was over a four-day period. I've been told they're good with students.

They did two seminars, "Connection" and "Musicality," and I took both with my partner (no rotation in the classes). They did different ones in NYC, something like "Social Dancing" and one other one I don't recall.

The Good:
* They're both hilarious, very personable and charming
* The classes were generally well structured with a clear focus and exercises building on each other in a logical manner
* The connection workshop was fantastic all around. I really felt like I understood deeply how they dance at the end. Very much shared connection and shared decisions. Many, many exercises from this one I'll be using for a long time.
* The discussions in the musicality track were very valuable. One of my favorite aspects was talking about what movements you should use with which kinds of songs. Like Carlitos would never use an ocho cortado to Tanturi/Campos, but Noelia would. I loved how they disagreed a lot on musicality but illustrated how they still made it work and had a fantastic time dancing with each other.

The not so good:
* A little inconsistent in the personal attention they showed couples. Carlitos got around to us a few times, but Noelia only personally interacted with us once, which isn't a lot for 16 hours worth of workshops
*Musicality workshops got choppy when they decide to teach a move to illustrate the musical idea they're going for. The moves were quite difficult, even for a class of higher level dancers. The moves would have stuff like follower crosses to the "bad" side, super quick rebounds with non-matching leaders footwork, etc. We'd find ourselves focusing more on learning the move than making it work to the music.

Bonus happy sad moments:
Happy: I've always felt like I'm missing out on the intensity and passion Argentines can bring to the table by understanding the lyrics while you dance. But, Carlitos said he doesn't hear 80% of the lyrics! Made me feel so much better.
Sad: Noelia doesn't like Biagi

 

[jantango]

I attended that Jorge Torres vals workshop. I have seen Jorge Torres do many performances, and I often have seen him dance socially. I have never seen him lead the woman's jump in his performances at milongas or in social dancing. In that portion of the workshop he selected one of the students in the workshop and led the jump and kick as a means of demonstrating what could be done with a relaxed follower who allows her free legs to respond to the lead, and how a lead in different directions, (including up) can be generated with subtlety. It was not choreographed, she did not know it was coming.



In the times that I have seen Jorge Torres dance socially in milongas I have not seen him lifting his feet off the floor, although he does in performances. In classes that I have taken with Jorge Torres he stresses that there are differences between performance and social dance, and stresses that performance elements should not be used on the social dance floor.

I don't understand why he tries so hard to impress social dancers with his stage moves that they will never try at a milonga.

His foot lifting gets noticed during his exhibitions. He doesn't announce "now I'm doing performance tango, so don't copy this style for your social dancing." People copy what they see in exhibitions, which are the majority of videos on YouTube. That's why social tango is contaminated with exhibition tango.

 

[Gssh]

A leaders skill and musicality is not always visible for the onlookers.

I think this is one of the more difficult things in tango - the leaders musicality is expressed for and through the follower, and i think it is ok - and sometimes necessary for the leader to be "off the music" if that gives the follower space to be "in the music". I worked on this for a long time - my teacher kept telling me that i had to feel the music in the followers body, not my own, and i just didn't get it.

Also: I personally don't trust the audio and video synch on any streaming service, so whatever musicality (or lack thereof) we see might be an illusion.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

They did two seminars, "Connection" and "Musicality," and I took both with my partner (no rotation in the classes). They did different ones in NYC, something like "Social Dancing" and one other one I don't recall.

Thanks for the recap. Yeah, here they did one on "social dancing" and another on something like "movements and connection" (I think). Both were fully booked. Interesting about the Biagi, well, to each her own.

 

[Vincenze]

I don't understand why he tries so hard to impress social dancers with his stage moves that they will never try at a milonga.

Jorge really means that it's fun to learn fancy steps, but a leader must adjust moves to each situation.

If a leader is at a milonga with an unknown lady, he must first "test" her abilities with simple moves.
If a lady says, "I've been studying tango for 10 years. Show me something!"; then it's time to spice up the dance.

It's the same with the close embrace.
If a woman doesn't want any close contact, it's not a problem to dance in the open embrace.
Another woman may enjoy the pleasure of her breasts rubbing against the man's chest, or not.

 

[tangobro]

Did you like their workshop? They were here in town recently but I couldn't attend it (was called a seminar) because it was over a four-day period. I've been told they're good with students.

The New York City seminars were:
TRACK 1: Social Dance
TRACK 2: Structures and Dynamics of the Movement

I didn't attend either seminar, but from what I heard from people who did attend they loved it. I took some workshops with them before, in Toronto, Canada and many of my impressions were similar to those posted by Tom Tango. Interesting, 1 of the women I frequently dance with took their workshop in Mexico, another took their workshop in Sicily, both made similar remarks about insufficient input from Noelia, but still thought the classes were great. I chalk Noelia's teaching style up to her being an organic dancer. She began dancing at a young age, observing other dancers in the milonga, so many of her choices are spontaneous, natural, & organic, rather than a studied application of specific technique that she can then later reproduce & explain when questioned. Maybe that's part of what makes them dynamic, Carlitos explained that some of what he does is in response to her choices, rather than solely his decisions as a leader. In my classes we did not have a problem getting input from Noelia, but I would seek out & engage her when there was a question, and with both her & Carlitos (as with most other Argentinians I've taken classes with), asking questions in Spanish provided a fuller response.

 

[dchester]

Also: I personally don't trust the audio and video synch on any streaming service, so whatever musicality (or lack thereof) we see might be an illusion.

Very true. Also, sometimes after recording a performance, they hear the music didn't pick up well, so then they try to re-dub the music, and don't quite get it right.

 

[tangobro]

I don't understand why he tries so hard to impress social dancers with his stage moves that they will never try at a milonga.

His foot lifting gets noticed during his exhibitions. He doesn't announce "now I'm doing performance tango, so don't copy this style for your social dancing." People copy what they see in exhibitions, which are the majority of videos on YouTube. That's why social tango is contaminated with exhibition tango.

Sorry you didn't understand, perhaps I wasn't clear enough when I said he "...led the jump and kick as a means of demonstrating what could be done with a relaxed follower who allows her free legs to respond to the lead, and how a lead in different directions, (including up) can be generated with subtlety". What he was teaching in the workshop was that the lead should direct the direction, length & speed of the followers step without pushing or pulling her, that in order for that to happen the follower should remain relaxed, not anticipate & move before being led, and allow her free leg to respond to the lead. I did not feel he was trying "to impress social dancers with his stage moves...", but using that demonstration to illustrate his point.

Actually, that performance was at a restaurant where there are people who come only to eat, socialize with others who speak Spanish & watch a show. They are not interested in trying to learn tango, much less copy an exhibition. Those who do dance are capable of distinguishing the difference between social & exhibition tango & don't need an announcement.

I agree that there are some (they range from a relatively small number to none in the milongas I attend) who confuse social tango & exhibition tango. In my area these are usually newbies, after a few years of dancing in the social tango scene they begin to dance more like the people around them, & less like those doing exhibition tango on a stage.