Milonga codes of Buenos Aires accepted in Hong Kong milonga

[dchester]

What’s your point ?

Your guess is as good as mine

I expect that poor BTM is used to dancing with ladies of a "certain age". Thats the reality of living in the provinces. So forgive him if he goes a bit crazy at the thought of dancing with anyone below the age of 30...

I was wondering if he found a pub with WiFi.

 

[tangobro]

Slight Leeper, isnt that why they need codes in the first place... to try and control behaviour; whereas for us self contained brits go to let our hair down; we dont want codes, we want to dance with whomever we please, (and the prettier the better!)

I guess the same can be said about some people in New York City. Last week after doing a series of workshops Pablo Veron (who impressed me as a teacher) was at a milonga. I was not there but according to the agreed upon elements that I've heard - a woman asked Pablo to dance, he declined. One of the ladies he was seated with explained that was not how things were done in Bs. As. The woman said something about not caring about that, there was some verbal back & forth & the woman slapped Pablo - he hit her back & both were asked to leave the milonga.

 

[Angel HI]

There is some question/debate about the facts. Though your post is the general accounting, the organizer insists that it omits much. Please, posters, let's just leave this one alone, and return to the OP's question.

 

[bordertangoman]

What’s your point ?

Milongueros are very very picky with who they dance with. This a friend has told me. They won't dance with beginners or poor dancers ( unless there is some ulterior motive)

 

[Joe]

Hey, when in Rome...

 

[Light Sleeper]

Maybe! But from a male perspective it still seems to be the case that women dont actually do much "searching". They wait for the man to make the approach. And that's regardless of the numbers against them.

*Sigh* hehehe

I guess we're sensitive souls and the reason we ask less is precisely the 'numbers against us'

10 guys at a milonga, 1 girl - she's not going to be refused a dance.
1 guy at a milonga, 10 girls - she's got more chance of being refused as he's got more choice.

I personally would probably dash to the toilet to have a moment if someone refused me. (I have never refused anybody a dance, ever...
mind you, for my own wellbeing I wish I had have done at times). As for making yourself available where there is no universal 'non verbal method of invitation'... pretty difficult. We can assume that looking attentive and interested in what's going on on the dancefloor may mean you're more likely to get an invitation. BUT isn't that just a coincidence? Seeing as other posters have said no amount of non-verbal hinting that they were avoiding dancing put some men off from asking.

... actually, all this is making me prefer 'non verbal methods'. As I said, I did it once at salsa but picked my moment carefully. I don't know whether I can find my balls enough to replicate the moment, either in salsa or tango.

... even notice my rather indelicate turn of phrase re finding the chutzpah to be the intiator of a dance. There's no getting over gender differences on or off the dancefloor... I think it's quite ingrained in women to sit and wait.. man is a hunter after all - we are the gatherers...

... on the other hand, I often find that men make really good followers - where does this come from? Men geared to following a general into battle unquestioningly? Hmmm....

Interesting stuff.

And as to the word 'available'.. it's roots are actually in Middle English meaning 'to be strong'.. funny how meanings change as it's connotations now seem to be 'passive/ waiting'...

 

[Light Sleeper]

OK, let’s be polemic: ...sounds like a recipe for a pretty uncomfortable milonga for me. Older wealthy guys trying to get a hold on young chicks. Young chicks looking for an evening for free. Both groups in total disregard of the beauty of dance, annoying everybody else! The concept of “self contained brits“ will make excellent female dancers older than 50, (here in Berlin 30) sit around all night and quench the desire to perfect their dancing skills in young male dancers. The result: push and shove on the dance floor, frustration at the tables.

The honor of a milonguero is to give any woman the best possible dance, to make her feel and look good without any regards of age, appearance and skill … and to proof this several times a night.

If I had to choose ...

So... sounds that because so few people who can 'do' tango also 'have tango' the number of Milongueros who have this code of honour are few and far between (at least outside Argentina?). Those of us with a sense of honour have to battle it out amongst the dancers with their own individual dreams and desires (e.g. to meet someone to bolster ego/ status/ find a bed partner). This is one reason that I find the salsa battleground too harsh for my sensitive nature. I am lucky that I have a regular tango partner, though I think he won't have the time to dance much longer.

Tango is such a long, arduous journey, but worth it as I fell in love with the music....to end up with it becoming basically a cattle market is hugely depressing.

Also, remind me not to go to Berlin as I'll be sat out all night, what with me being in my early 30s. Though I did get asked for ID to buy a bottle of wine last week and the girl who served me looked younger than me - ha ha ha -result! Is it any wonder women can find themselves get sidetracked by being obsessed with keeping up a youthful appearance when we're considered over the hill after 30? Jesus, I'm just getting into my prime!

Anyway, rant over from Miss Jean Brodie

 

[Captain Jep]

I guess we're sensitive souls and the reason we ask less is precisely the 'numbers against us'

10 guys at a milonga, 1 girl - she's not going to be refused a dance.
1 guy at a milonga, 10 girls - she's got more chance of being refused as he's got more choice.

Well yes but those are the extremes. Its much more likely that you will get say two or three ladies sitting in a cluster together. They will all be talking among themselves and at the same time watching the dance floor. What they wont generally do is scope the room, checking who is sitting out.

I personally would probably dash to the toilet to have a moment if someone refused me. (I have never refused anybody a dance, ever...
mind you, for my own wellbeing I wish I had have done at times).

Yes, its a shame we have to kiss all the frogs isnt it?

That would be the equivalent of the guy going to the bar, then. Or pretending to see his best friend across the room ..

As for making yourself available where there is no universal 'non verbal method of invitation'... pretty difficult. We can assume that looking attentive and interested in what's going on on the dancefloor may mean you're more likely to get an invitation. BUT isn't that just a coincidence? Seeing as other posters have said no amount of non-verbal hinting that they were avoiding dancing put some men off from asking.

Well you'll always get the blockheads. Still...

Ive noticed a lot of ladies expect to get the attention of people on the dance floor at the end of a dance. "You look good I'll dance with you!!" But surely its better to catch the attention of somebody sitting out? The man leaving the dance floor is a) with another woman until he shows her to her seat and b) recovering from his last dance. The ones sitting out are ready to go. Maybe there's a belief that its the "losers" who sit out? Heaven knows.

This incidentally is one thing I really like about BsAs milongas. The fact that everyone clears the dance floor between tandas. You dont get people "camping" on the dance floor. And so making it harder for everyone else.

... on the other hand, I often find that men make really good followers - where does this come from? Men geared to following a general into battle unquestioningly? Hmmm....

Interesting stuff.

Maybe its a flipside of being a good leader - the ability to tune in completely to your partner...

 

[Steve Pastor]

We can assume that looking attentive and interested in what's going on on the dancefloor may mean you're more likely to get an invitation. BUT isn't that just a coincidence?

I can't answer for all men and all circumstances, but I am quite sure that looking attentive and interested in what's going on on the dancefloor will increase the chance that someone who doesn't know you will ask you to dance. It's something I am always aware of.

I often find that men make really good followers - where does this come from?

man is a hunter after all - we are the gatherers...

Interesting book just came out (don't have the name for you) about the lack of research supporting differences in the brains of infant boys and girls. On the other hand certain biological differences do exist between men and woman and are the basis for some of our conventions. It's complicated.

we're considered over the hill after 30? I'm just getting into my prime!

I'm not going to share my current status age wise, but, sometimes you just have to come to the conclusion that some cultural "truths" are not true at all.

there is no universal 'non verbal method of invitation'

I disagree, and others have alluded to the "universality" of an informal cabezeo.
I wish more women who tell me that I should ask them to dance more often would at least look at me and smile once in a while, or say, "hi". letting me know that at the very least they know I exist and are acknowledging me and might be interested in dancing with me.

 

[jantango]

Milongueros are very very picky with who they dance with. This a friend has told me. They won't dance with beginners or poor dancers ( unless there is some ulterior motive)

It is true that milongueros are selective with whom they dance a tanda at a milonga. They want to dance well or not at all. What excellent dancer wants to dance with an unknown dancer just for the sake of dancing?

It is not true that milongueros won't dance with beginners. They dance during and after private lessons. A beginner quickly improves because a milonguero can make any woman dance well.

What is their ulterior motive, Bordertangoman?

A universal nonverbal method of invitation? There are as many varieties as their are men. Each finds a way that works for him -- a head tilt, a nod, a smile, movement of the lips (vamos). Women need to be alert since these are subtle movements that are not to be noticed by others in the room.

 

[Albanaich]

Well being the kind of guy who dances anything, anywhere with anyone. . . . . .there are general patterns that apply to all kinds of dance.

If you want a dance stand up a position yourself at the exit of the dance floor at the end of a dance and seek eye contact with someone coming off the floor. If you are seated, get a seat near one of the exits and do the same.

Anyone standing up looking at the floor is looking for a dance. Make eye contact and you're on. Similar if they are looking intently into the floor sitting down

If you are guy, try and sit apart from a social group - ladies will make eye contact or even walk right up to you.

The age thing - well we all want to dance with skilled attractive young dancers. . . . . but that is not much of an issue once folks assess you ability level.

If you are completely new to a venue, do a little display on the walk to the bar, or at the bar, feather step or a sort of slow gancho as if you are scratching yourself (I've done that outside of dance setting (boredom) and picked up people for dancing, usually waiting at airport or railway platform, women zero in on you from a 1,000 yards. 'you're a dancer') .

Old people (and I'm old) who dance are either very good or very bad, not so much with technique as with balance, timing and rhythm. There doesn't seem to be much in between. It's that much more difficult to pick up basic skills when you are older, on the flip side your partner might have been dancing for 40 years + in which case you'll the silkyest smoothest dance ever.

I'm an old guy and can fairly bounce about the floor in various forms of dance - I get far more than my fair share of young, and even very young (teenagers) partners. I think that's because I'm nice to dance with and got past the stage of wanting to get their knickers off. (though sometimes the thought does go there). I'm there for dancing not anything else.

 

[Light Sleeper]

Yes, its a shame we have to kiss all the frogs isnt it?

Well you'll always get the blockheads. Still...

Maybe there's a belief that its the "losers" who sit out? Heaven knows.

Maybe its a flipside of being a good leader - the ability to tune in completely to your partner...

Forgive me, I've been been dreaming of an ideal world and reading too much about the Levellers But seriously, it probably boils down to the fact that I'm very sensitive to anything that smacks of rejection even if I analyse it objectively that it wasn't. Also, someone asked me for a dance last week and the way he asked wasn't 'unassertive' yet still he couched it in a tone which implied the answer could've been 'no' - that's a shock to me as I'm so open it never occurs to me to refuse.

'losers sitting out' - hmm, comes back to my idea of 'being available' having almost negative connotations?

Re the men who are good followers - yes, but they're terrible leaders. And often the lady is a rubbish follower but a good leader.

 

[Light Sleeper]

I can't answer for all men and all circumstances, but I am quite sure that looking attentive and interested in what's going on on the dancefloor will increase the chance that someone who doesn't know you will ask you to dance. It's something I am always aware of.

True, but I think I'd actually rather try and master the art of asking than try and look attentive but be ignored. Hmm, anyway..

Interesting book just came out (don't have the name for you) about the lack of research supporting differences in the brains of infant boys and girls. On the other hand certain biological differences do exist between men and woman and are the basis for some of our conventions. It's complicated.

Any sensible feminist would tell you that there ARE differences (undoubtedly) but that it's the politics that are attached to those differences that are the problem. So - little research done - and yet often things are reported in the pop press re adult sex differences - usually highlighting women's strengths over men which is disgraceful.

I'm not going to share my current status age wise, but, sometimes you just have to come to the conclusion that some cultural "truths" are not true at all.

I always think of you as kindly and avuncular and with a surname like 'Pastor', although I don't imagine you with bit mutton chop sideburns and a startched collar, I get the impression you are older than I at least :friend: But you are right re 'cultural truths'. Now I come to think of it - I find a lot of them are rubbish!

I disagree, and others have alluded to the "universality" of an informal cabezeo.

True, but I think my feeling was that it's not consistent amongst all dancers... maybe a woman gets in a 'he's going to ask me verbally' mode instead of picking up on, or exuding non-verbal signals.

I wish more women who tell me that I should ask them to dance more often would at least look at me and smile once in a while, or say, "hi". letting me know that at the very least they know I exist and are acknowledging me and might be interested in dancing with me

True, true. Why do we find that so hard!

 

[Light Sleeper]

If you are completely new to a venue, do a little display on the walk to the bar, or at the bar, feather step or a sort of slow gancho as if you are scratching yourself (I've done that outside of dance setting (boredom) and picked up people for dancing, usually waiting at airport or railway platform, women zero in on you from a 1,000 yards. 'you're a dancer') .

Ha ha, wise words, Albanaich - you've put it all into perspective.

But as for doing a little solo slow gancho display by the bar, people just might think you're desperate for the loo!

Way to go, picking up dance partners at an airport!

 

[bjp22tango]

Cabaceo isn't restricted to AT. It's used in other dancing as well, especially in places with loud music, where you would have to shout to be heard. I use it in ballroom in our small group when I want to beat someone else to a partner I know likes to dance to whichever music is coming up. It's so much faster than dashing across the floor only to have someone else beat you by seconds.

However I will say, if you are waiting to be "cabaceod" rather than actively looking for a partner yourself, it can be just as intimidating, demoralizing, and/or boring as waiting to be asked to dance in our culture.

You have to actively be looking even if you are talking with someone else.