Milonguera to me: "You have a ballroom frame"

[samina]

We don't know when it happened. If it was at a class or a practica, I would not consider it "blatantly rude".

even if it was at a milonga, why is it necessarily rude to point this out? being unpleasant is one thing, but just observing that someone has a ballroom frame as opposed to an AT frame seems a fair enough observation, good for conversation amongst dancers, even.

i know it's not that uncommon. and sounds like it has been a helpful distinction for the OP...

 

[Subliminal]

I really don't like cats, but I also recognise the futility of the discussion. Count me out. Unless, you want to have a go at just that very question: What is tango? (ie with no prefix) ...

You're going to make me punch a kitten, aren't you?

ok. I can tell you what my definition is.

There is an Argentine Tango spectrum, a continuity of social styles. On one end of the spectrum is Subtlety. On the other end is Complexity. One can have a personal dance style that sits on a point on this spectrum, or is actually a line that spans up and down a portion of it. The whole spectrum is linked by a shared origin/tradition of Argentine Tango dance and some basis of shared technique.

On the far end of the complexity side, you will find modern styles; "nuevo", etc. On the far end of the subtlety side, you will find "apilado" or "milonguero" traditional close embrace styles. In the middle of the spectrum is the Salon style of the less crowded traditional milongas, a mix of traditional technique with some complexity thrown in for fun.

Smooth Tango, Standard Tango, and Fantasia are not on the spectrum, they are their own thing.

 

[UKDancer]

There is an Argentine Tango spectrum, a continuity of social styles. On one end of the spectrum is Subtlety. On the other end is Complexity. One can have a personal dance style that sits on a point on this spectrum, or is actually a line that spans up and down a portion of it. The whole spectrum is linked by a shared origin/tradition of Argentine Tango dance and some basis of shared technique.

On the far end of the complexity side, you will find modern styles; "nuevo", etc. On the far end of the subtlety side, you will find "apilado" or "milonguero" traditional close embrace styles. In the middle of the spectrum is the Salon style of the less crowded traditional milongas, a mix of traditional technique with some complexity thrown in for fun.

I've no quarrel with that, as far as it goes, but it doesn't really answer the question "What is tango?", but I'm not seriously asking the question.

 

[Subliminal]

I've no quarrel with that, as far as it goes, but it doesn't really answer the question "What is tango?", but I'm not seriously asking the question.

Sure it does. Well, it depends on if you want a dictionary definition or a working definition.

Dictionary: Tango is any dance descended from the Argentine Tango of the 1900s.

Working: Distinct families of dance distantly related to the Argentine Tango of 1900s. Argentine Tango social, Argentine Tango choreography, American Ballroom Tango, International Ballroom Tango, Tango/Modern Dance Fusion, Tango Contact Improvisation.

ETA: This is a distinctly dance-centric definition I'll admit. Adding music to the definition, which some would argue is necessary, vastly complicates things.

 

[Lilly_of_the_valley]

even if it was at a milonga, why is it necessarily rude to point this out? being unpleasant is one thing, but just observing that someone has a ballroom frame as opposed to an AT frame seems a fair enough observation, good for conversation amongst dancers, even.

i know it's not that uncommon. and sounds like it has been a helpful distinction for the OP...

Well, at a milonga, in general, the etiquette prescribes avoiding saying or doing anything that could cause your partner a discomfort, therefore, precludes from making comments about your partner's dancing unless it is a compliment. So I can see how such a comment from a random partner may be considered inappropriate or even rude.
In the story in question, the topic starter took the comment in question as a compliment, and later decided to take a constructive approach and ask around, and good for him.
It could have turned out differently. Imagine you are a beginner, and you realize your partner hints that something is not right about your dancing. And since you are new, you do not even fully understand what he/she means, let alone are able to correct it on the spot. How would it make you feel? Lots of people would feel bad while put into that kind of situation.

 

[dchester]

If this devolves into a "what is tango" discussion I will punch a kitten. Don't test me. I'll do it! Think of the kittens.

Well I hate cats, and don't care much about kittens either.

 

[dchester]

If you come from the traditionalist party, then you will probably feel that way, but after nuevo came more and more, and now some people dance tango to almost anything and happily embrace it as tango music.

One of our local DJs claims, proudly, that he would rather break a leg than play anything not of the Golden Age, while another recently played Arab Funk, Tom Waits, the Rap, The Femme Fatale, Cure, Nick Cave, and Nighthawks. They are irreconcilable positions.

Around these parts (New England), they call that stuff "Alternative Music", rather than tango music. I don't have a problem with some alternative music, but that doesn't change the fact that it's not tango music.

Now as to the question, is it tango if you're not dancing to tango music . . .

 

[pygmalion]

He ha! Love the smiley, dchester. :-D

 

[samina]

Well, at a milonga, in general, the etiquette prescribes avoiding saying or doing anything that could cause your partner a discomfort, therefore, precludes from making comments about your partner's dancing unless it is a compliment. So I can see how such a comment from a random partner may be considered inappropriate or even rude.
In the story in question, the topic starter took the comment in question as a compliment, and later decided to take a constructive approach and ask around, and good for him.
It could have turned out differently. Imagine you are a beginner, and you realize your partner hints that something is not right about your dancing. And since you are new, you do not even fully understand what he/she means, let alone are able to correct it on the spot. How would it make you feel? Lots of people would feel bad while put into that kind of situation.

meh...i'm not easily offended by comments about my dancing in any context...i wouldn't "feel bad", i'd be curious to know how I could improve...or i'd just let it roll off my back. feedback and observations of every kind have always led to some benefit of some kind, without exception.

Which is why I tend to think it's over-sensitivity to make such a fuss over a reasonable comment. I'd certainly prefer the candor over being subsequently and quietly snubbed because of my "ballroom frame", without having been given the courtesy of being helpfully informed i'm not quite on the right page.

courtesy takes many forms.

 

[Steve Pastor]

Well, at a milonga, in general, the etiquette prescribes avoiding saying or doing anything that could cause your partner a discomfort, therefore, precludes from making comments about your partner's dancing unless it is a compliment.

This is why, when and where people who take the "codes" of Argentine Tango and its culture seriously, will tell beginners that they should learn the dance, and the codes, before going to a milonga.

Things being what they are in the US, and from what I read, Europe...

 

[pygmalion]

This is why, when and where people who take the "codes" of Argentine Tango and its culture seriously, will tell beginners that they should learn the dance, and the codes, before going to a milonga.

Things being what they are in the US, and from what I read, Europe...

Interesting.

So where should beginners go? And how do they get good enough to swim with with big boys, if they're learning/dancing in a beginner environment? And doesn't being segregated impede their progress?

Just curious. No judgment, one way or the other. Just looking for information.

 

[Steve Pastor]

The answer is the "practica". Not suprisingly, it is a place you go to practice.

Some venues will have a lesson, then a "practilonga" or such so that the beginners can get their floor time. Then, as the evening progresses, it becomes a milonga, and you will be expected to know what you are doing.

(Keep wanting to write more, but not sure how it will come across.)

 

[Lilly_of_the_valley]

The beginners ... should learn the dance, and the codes, before going to a milonga.

Completely agree.

 

[Lilly_of_the_valley]

Interesting.

So where should beginners go? And how do they get good enough to swim with with big boys, if they're learning/dancing in a beginner environment? And doesn't being segregated impede their progress?

Just curious. No judgment, one way or the other. Just looking for information.

Classes and practicas.
Beginners: If your goal is to dance in the milongas, and your current instructor does not mention milonga etiquette in classes, RUN.

 

[pygmalion]

So what is accepted milonga etiquette re: teaching other dancers while on the the dance floor?