Milonguera to me: "You have a ballroom frame"

[Lilly_of_the_valley]

meh...i'm not easily offended by comments about my dancing in any context...i wouldn't "feel bad", i'd be curious to know how I could improve...or i'd just let it roll off my back. feedback and observations of every kind have always led to some benefit of some kind, without exception.

Which is why I tend to think it's over-sensitivity to make such a fuss over a reasonable comment. I'd certainly prefer the candor over being subsequently and quietly snubbed because of my "ballroom frame", without having been given the courtesy of being helpfully informed i'm not quite on the right page.

courtesy takes many forms.

While going to a milonga, why would anyone expect other attendees to give them feedback and corrections? It is not so easy, and no one is there to work.
How do I know one whose dancing, attitude, behavior (in my opinion!) need corrections will welcome my less than positive feedback, and react positively and constructively?
How do you know a person who decided to helpfully inform you about your shortcomings is qualified to do so?
Bottom line. If someone found a polite and useful way to help and inform, without hurting one's feelings, wonderful. I personally have not seen that happen often in the milonga setting. The milonga is not the right place for giving feedback and correction.

 

[Lilly_of_the_valley]

So what is accepted milonga etiquette re: teaching other dancers while on the the dance floor?

Not acceptable.

 

[pygmalion]

While going to a milonga, why would anyone expect other attendees to give them feedback and corrections? It is not so easy, and no one is there to work.
How do I know one whose dancing, attitude, behavior (in my opinion!) needs corrections will welcome my less than positive feedback and react positively and constructively?
How do you know a person who decided to helpfully inform you about your shortcomings is qualified to do so?
Bottom line. If someone found a polite and useful way to help and inform, without hurting one's feelings, wonderful. I personally have not seen that happen often. The milonga is not the right place for giving feedback and correction.

That's kinda what I thought. Nice that the tango community has a middle ground -- the practica -- where feedback is considered appropriate. None of the dance scenes I've experienced have anything similar.

ETA: I guess that kinda gives the dancer the responsibility to take him/her self off to a practica, until ready for more.

 

[Steve Pastor]

Well, at a milonga, in general, the etiquette prescribes avoiding saying or doing anything that could cause your partner a discomfort, therefore, precludes from making comments about your partner's dancing unless it is a compliment.

for instance.

No teaching, etc. It's not ALL that different than most social dance etiquette until you get to certain things like the know how to dance before you show up thing. Well, that and not asking someone to dance without using the cabeceo (but that one rarely survives transplanting!).

(Oh, and I can tell you that even in milongas in Buenos Aires, these rules are not ALWAYS adhered to. I'll let others comment on how often they aren't though.)

 

[Steve Pastor]

I guess that kinda gives the dancer the responsibility to take him/her self off to a practica, until ready for more.

I do understand, though, that there are places where there ARE no practicas. And then there are the other dances where beginners are welcome anytime , and you are expected to dance with all the beginners, and if you don't you are being rude, etc.

I can only hope that people understand the culture part of AT being different, and not expect it to be like everything else they know.

 

[AndaBien]

...i'm not easily offended by comments about my dancing in any context...

Many people are.

...i'd be curious to know how I could improve...

Many people aren't.

...it's over-sensitivity to make such a fuss over a reasonable comment...

I tend to think any comment that could be considered less than positive should not be made at a milonga. A class or practice is completely different, since people are supposedly there to learn. I assume people attend milongas to dance, not to be instructed or informed.

I once made a comment to a beginner dancer regarding a serious mistake she was making. I would never have mentioned it, except it created a potentially dangerous situation. She accused me of being cranky, so I tried to say it was an important point. The next time I asked her to dance she pointedly declined.

Lesson learned: don't make negative comments unless you want to risk loosing a partner.

 

[samina]

While going to a milonga, why would anyone expect other attendees to give them feedback and corrections? It is not so easy, and no one is there to work.
How do I know one whose dancing, attitude, behavior (in my opinion!) need corrections will welcome my less than positive feedback, and react positively and constructively?
How do you know a person who decided to helpfully inform you about your shortcomings is qualified to do so?
Bottom line. If someone found a polite and useful way to help and inform, without hurting one's feelings, wonderful. I personally have not seen that happen often in the milonga setting. The milonga is not the right place for giving feedback and correction.

was the OP's received comment a correction or was it simply an observation? humans often share observations, regardless of the context, milonga or otherwise.

i understand that the AT community has strict rules of acceptable conduct, like many other social contexts & rituals, and the majority who love those venues may also deeply value adherence to those rules of conduct.

i'm just sayin'...i wouldn't leap to calling someone rude just because they shared an observation, which anyone who reads the AT threads over the years knows is common & natural when the two cultures of AT & ballroom collide on the dance floor.

 

[AndaBien]

I do understand, though, that there are places where there ARE no practicas...

I am happy to give constructive feedback at a milonga, but only if it is asked of me. Otherwise, no way.

 

[Lilly_of_the_valley]

was the OP's received comment a correction or was it simply an observation? humans often share observations, regardless of the context, milonga or otherwise.

i understand that the AT community has strict rules of acceptable conduct, like many other social contexts & rituals, and the majority who love those venues may also deeply value adherence to those rules of conduct.

i'm just sayin'...i wouldn't leap to calling someone rude just because they shared an observation, which anyone who reads the AT threads over the years knows is common & natural when the two cultures of AT & ballroom collide on the dance floor.

In the OP's case it happened in a context of a workshop exercise on the specific topic of the embrace, hence, quite appropriate.

 

[pygmalion]

was the OP's received comment a correction or was it simply an observation? humans often share observations, regardless of the context, milonga or otherwise.

i understand that the AT community has strict rules of acceptable conduct, like many other social contexts & rituals, and the majority who love those venues may also deeply value adherence to those rules of conduct.

i'm just sayin'...i wouldn't leap to calling someone rude just because they shared an observation, which anyone who reads the AT threads over the years knows is common & natural when the two cultures of AT & ballroom collide on the dance floor.

Being at each others' throats and devaluing others' dance cultures can also be common. I'm not in love with common. I hear you when you suggest that people can be more open to each other, dance or otherwise. IME, often, people who think they are open receivers are not, so my intended "openness" doesn't always lead to heightened understanding, even if heightened understanding is the goal.

My approach? I try to be whoever I am, but I also try to understand the culture I want to become a part of. If AT etiquette requires me to keep my counsel at a milonga, I will, unless I've developed a personal relationship with someone with whom etiquette is irrelevant.

Not sure what could be gained by anybody other than me, if I choose to tell my truth, in the midst of a culture which has a completely different set of values. Who's going to receive my "truth" positively? *shrug*

 

[Gssh]

I am happy to give constructive feedback at a milonga, but only if it is asked of me. Otherwise, no way.

I don't like doing even that - maybe something that can actually expressed in a single sentence, but in my expereince things are never that easy, and to actually effectivly communicate things requires dancing and pointing the nuance out a few times, from different moves and so on, and there is just no space for that at a milonga. With a few followers i knew very well i have stepped of the dancefloor and gone to the lobby for doing practica style work, but unless we both want to spend two or three tandas doing this it won't actually do anything, and most followers (and i) are not that keen on fiddling with technique when at a milonga.

One sentence solutions tend to be no solution at all, and usually what i feel when dancing is the consequence of a cascade of things and what i think is the root is probably just an intermediate step (i really admire the old teachers who are able to diagnose the root of problems immediately). And to figure out what is actually wrong requires concentrated work from both of us, not something we could do while actually dancing.

So the only thing well meaning advice without actually working on it does is to disrupt an usually perfectly salvagable dance, without giving anything positive back.

Gssh

 

[AndaBien]

I don't like doing even that - maybe something that can actually expressed in a single sentence, but in my experience things are never that easy...

Generally, I agree. I would never give a lesson on the dance floor, even if asked.

I do think there are rare occasions when a correction must be made, because the problem is potentially harmful and the solution can be explained is a few sentences.

 

[bordertangoman]

Not sure what could be gained by anybody other than me, if I choose to tell my truth, in the midst of a culture which has a completely different set of values. Who's going to receive my "truth" positively? *shrug*

me for one. I'm an Outsider ( in a Camusian sense)

 

[bordertangoman]

If this devolves into a "what is tango" discussion I will punch a kitten. Don't test me. I'll do it! Think of the kittens.

At any rate. There may be some similarities here and there between AT and BR, but more often than not trying to draw upon BR technique usually results in forming bad AT habits you have to unlearn.

so how many kittens have you punched so far?

this thread is way off topic and has gotten rather boring..

 

[UKDancer]

this thread is way off topic and has gotten rather boring..

The cat population has to be controlled, somehow.