Milonguero style

[JohnEm]

For me, Argentine Tango is not just a dance, it's a lifestyle and I admit that it's hard for me to trust learning from a teacher that does not live the argentine tango lifestyle, because they may have something to teach, but it will be soulless. Is that wrong?

yes

on a serious note; you are an intelligent human being. if you cant see what is useful in what a teacher is offering, because of their background, then I think it amounts to a prejudice....I find most of the teachers I evaluate as good, are teaching the same thing in their own way, with differing degrees of emphasis, and respond to the level of the people they are teaching.

Prejudice is a bit strong to say the least.

Assessing teachers is always difficult and everyone has their own perspective.
Why would anyone want to willingly waste their time and money
(because it's never free) on confusing classes/lessons. Leaving aside
the many problems of classes, some more discernment might improve
the quality of teaching, maybe even change what is taught.

Why should people in the process of learning have to decide what is good
enough to retain and what is individually so bad to be discarded? You have
to be quite a long way down the road to have enough experience and
knowledge to make those assessments. I found that when you have got
that far it's time to stop lessons of almost any kind and learn for yourself
by the practice of dancing.

Newcomers to tango have no such basis, the teacher is the pedagogue.
If they are also completely new to dance, almost anything will seem
wonderful. It's often those newcomers who are both attracted and
deceived by the visual marketing of tango and its teaching.
Then some discover that what they have learned is unsuitable
for the milongas in Tango's heartland.

 

[UKDancer]

Why should people in the process of learning have to decide what is good enough to retain and what is individually so bad to be discarded?

Because there is no objective measure that can be applied by anyone, let alone novices, in this dance. Teaching of tango more-or-less throughout the world (unless anyone knows otherwise) appears to be wholly unregulated, and the dance itself is not standardised (which of itself, is not necessarily a bad thing), so variations are inevitable.

Teachers can teach well or they can teach badly, and what they teach will fit some groups or communities, and not others. After all, there's nothing historically authentic about tango having teachers at all, is there?

 

[JohnEm]

Tango isn't the same for Graciela, although she has a name in tango for her association with Pupy Castello. She took classes with Gustavo Naveira beginning in 1988. Pupy needed a short partner, and Graciela fit the bill. He trained her in his style. Milongueras like Margarita Serrantes, Amanda Lucero, Nely Fernando learned dancing in the clubs. Tango is everything to them. It's work for Graciela.

More hate-filled ranting and attempts to smear the reputations of teachers you don't like. Why am I not surprised?

jantango's post doesn't read as hateful to me but yours does.
Maybe the ungarnished truth is discomforting - it isn't easy for anyone
to accept that they may have been duped.

None of those names mean anything to me. I have never met a single one... Except for Graciela, who has been through my town to teach many times. If tango is to survive in the world, it will be because of people like her.

I for one would like it to survive in the World, but what often what survives
is the soulless dance of tango academia and/or "tango for export".

One more thing.... Do you even realize how snide and elitist it sounds to demean a teacher for daring to take classes? Most people in the world learned from classes because that's what is there.

Snide and elitist indeed! Another calm and measured response - not!

Classes are an introduction to dance for many but they are not
the best way to learn many dances, especially ones involving closeness.
Beginner learning with beginner is particularly unhelpful.

The best compromise I found was a really small group which allowed
a significant measure of personal tuition mixed with much practise.
Classes rarely allow that and very few have significant practise time
following it, or even any opportunity to practise.

Teachers love classes, you work out how much teachers can earn from
well attended classes. There's much more money to be gained from
giving people what they want rather than what they actually need.

 

[JohnEm]

Because there is no objective measure that can be applied by anyone, let alone novices, in this dance. Teaching of tango more-or-less throughout the world (unless anyone knows otherwise) appears to be wholly unregulated, and the dance itself is not standardised (which of itself, is not necessarily a bad thing), so variations are inevitable.

No disagreement from me. My problem remains that what is taught,
presumably mostly intended for people who want to dance socially,
isn't sociable tango. London is the worst example generally I know for this.
Frankly most of the tango taught here seems to be more appropriate
for people who want only to attend classes or maybe perform in one way
or another. Fair enough if they were advertised as such but they are not.

Teachers can teach well or they can teach badly, and what they teach will fit some groups or communities, and not others. After all, there's nothing historically authentic about tango having teachers at all, is there?

Yes, it's always rather amusing to read teaching promotions claiming
to teach "authentic" Argentine Tango. In Buenos Aires you realise most
of it is not authentic social dancing.

But the word authentic is very elastic, truth in advertising would help.
The city's promotion of tango for tourism doesn't help: the Argentines
themselves are negatively influencing their own dance of the senses
to become visually judged as a dance of the extrovert.
On that basis the claims of "authenticity" become authentic.

 

[UKDancer]

Frankly most of the tango taught here seems to be more appropriate for people who want only to attend classes or maybe perform in one way or another. Fair enough if they were advertised as such but they are not.

This is largely true of the English Midlands too. Attending tango classes seems to be a popular hobby, while attending Milongas is not. If it were otherwise, someone would find it worthwhile to organise Milongas regularly: almost no one does.

And you are quite right about there being money in well-attended classes, and they work better in some styles of dance than others. For tango, they are a deeply flawed way to learn. But where in the world can you learn tango in the authentic way (in a strictly male-only amateur practica four or five nights a week; or if you are a women, at home, from your mother or sisters)? Not BsAs, certainly, for much of the last half-century. Where else in the world are more tango dreams shattered by a tourist-driven commercial teaching frenzy than those few square miles?

 

[bordertangoman]

Assessing teachers is always difficult and everyone has their own perspective. Why would anyone want to willingly waste their time and money
(because it's never free) on confusing classes/lessons. Leaving aside
the many problems of classes, some more discernment might improve
the quality of teaching, maybe even change what is taught.
.

1. Teaching theory; Conditional learning; (in a nutshell)

The value of doubt and uncertainty
"The key to this better way of teaching is based on an appreciation of the conditional nature of the world and the value of uncertainty. Teaching skills and facts in a conditional way sets the stage for doubt, and an awareness of how different situations may call for subtle differences in what we bring to them."
Ellen J Langer

2. because I know some people get told in absolute terms by other tango teachers. "It has to be done this way" and the emotive reaction (if you are going to different classes and getting three different views) is ***?? but an intelligent reaction is to try it and see if it works; at all, for you, sometimes, or not.

Why should people in the process of learning have to decide what is good
enough to retain and what is individually so bad to be discarded?

because I was taught this by my maths teacher at Sixth Form; he said; don't take anyone else's answers for granted; question and prove it or disprove it yourself. because they are adults and capable of making intelligent choices. How is another matter entirely.

You have
to be quite a long way down the road to have enough experience and
knowledge to make those assessments. I found that when you have got
that far it's time to stop lessons of almost any kind and learn for yourself
by the practice of dancing.
.

Yes, but if you say it could be x or y; people start to think for themselves, and they start to address what they are experiencing..you dont have to be a "long way down the road"; you can develop people's skills to include: self assessment, what went well or badly in a practica and to work out what might improve it, or to seek help if you're not sure why.

 

[Subliminal]

jantango's post doesn't read as hateful to me but yours does.

Of course not. You drank the same cool-aid she did.

There is only one tango. The "milonguero" style, or whatever you want to call it. It's always been danced. (Except historical accounts show it hasn't.)

It's the only style that matters. (Except that there are many other distinct styles danced worldwide.)

All tango that isn't that style is for show. (Except there is an actual tradition of dancing more open for dance floors that allow it, socially, and there is a defined style of tango "Fantasia" which is specifically for stage.)

All other styles of tango are soulless. (Except who the hell are you to tell other people what they feel?

All teachers who teach tango are in it for the money. (Except who actually thinks they'll get rich as a dance teacher?! A lot of them are just holding on in this economy. Most teachers teach because they love teaching. It's not some conspiracy.)

Maybe the ungarnished truth is discomforting - it isn't easy for anyone
to accept that they may have been duped.

Funny, you've given yourself away. You're trying to play the "calm rational discussion" card but you just had to throw in another insult revealing your true nature.

Comments like this make our tango community look UGLY, INTOLERANT, and ELITIST to the outside world. How is the tango community supposed to grow with this attitude? Not everyone can afford a trip to BsAs to learn from the milongueros. In fact, a lot of people who have never been are happy dancing the tango they know. Is their dancing inferior then? Who cares if they're happy?

 

[opendoor]

Jantango, have you seen Graciela at a milonga?

Yes, once in 13 years.....

Are there any notable teachers who dance socially?

That´s not the point. Professionals do not need to dance socially. I also knew that Graciela wasn´t seen en-pista for several years. But I simply expect that professionals do not speak in the name of social dancers. And I also find it curious when stage performers start explaining someone else´s style in public.

 

[fascination]

from a moderator perspective; the bottom line is that NO ONE here knows whether or not tango is "everything" to Graciela or only "work"....no one here is entitled to make that judgement...you can say you don't care for her talents and leave it at that, but you really have no right to assess what it means to her...it is an inflammatory judgment...though I agree that "hateful" might be a strong characterization....folks need to chill in here as this does not represent respectful discourse that encourages new members...so please...take note of this and move along ...when trying to share a perspective try to be mindful that you don't know what is inside the motivation of any other person and that we don't permit overly long speculation of that sort about persons who are not here to defend themselves...thanks...let's end the debate here...if it needs to be continued, take it to the staff mailbox

 

[opendoor]

jantango's post doesn't read as hateful to me but yours does.

...You drank the same cool-aid she did. There is only one tango. The "milonguero" style, or whatever you want to call it. It's always been danced..

Subliminal, I pay attention to your feelings. But I know that there are so many tango out there in the world that dance different styles and yet feel happy, too. I know that there still is a great number of open-hold tangueros in the US. But it is not there fault not jet to have encountered milonguero style.
You know I try to master every tango style, but I have no preference (canyengue, milonguero, salón, a little bit escenario, neotango). The music tells me which style to choose (Perhaps you remember my post on the history of tango music). And of course I do not claim "to tango" when I dance contact impro. But indeed I get a kick out of it, too. All the same with swing or salsa. I simply love to dance.

 

[JohnEm]

There is only one tango. The "milonguero" style, or whatever you want to call it. It's always been danced. (Except historical accounts show it hasn't.)

No such claim has been made here.

It's the only style that matters. (Except that there are many other distinct styles danced worldwide.)

There are, and it's what helps to make social dancing worldwide
so much more difficult than in Buenos Aires.

All tango that isn't that style is for show. (Except there is an actual tradition of dancing more open for dance floors that allow it, socially, and there is a defined style of tango "Fantasia" which is specifically for stage.)

Yes there is/was. Close dancing was frowned upon in the weekend social
dances of the outskirts. Apparently. But not now it seems.

All other styles of tango are soulless. (Except who the hell are you to tell other people what they feel?

I think I'm entitled to express my opinion which is is based on
some experience.

All teachers who teach tango are in it for the money. (Except who actually thinks they'll get rich as a dance teacher?! A lot of them are just holding on in this economy. Most teachers teach because they love teaching. It's not some conspiracy.)

Plenty of teachers make a living from tango.
The level of the living I cannot tell, but enough presumably.

Funny, you've given yourself away. You're trying to play the "calm rational discussion" card but you just had to throw in another insult revealing your true nature.

You must be very fragile if you read that as an insult.

Comments like this make our tango community look UGLY, INTOLERANT, and ELITIST to the outside world. How is the tango community supposed to grow with this attitude? Not everyone can afford a trip to BsAs to learn from the milongueros. In fact, a lot of people who have never been are happy dancing the tango they know. Is their dancing inferior then? Who cares if they're happy?

The tango I advocate is anything but elitist.
I'll leave others to judge the worth of the rest of your comment.

Except to correct one misperception that you are presumably attributing
to me. There is no need to go to Buenos Aires to learn from milongueros.
I didn't go to learn, I went to dance mainly with Argentine women.
Dance only - no lessons, nada.

 

[opendoor]

from a moderator perspective; the bottom line is that NO ONE here knows whether or not tango is "everything" to Graciela or only "work"....

But I have asked her !

 

[fascination]

open door: I can claim that any ballroom teacher on the planet told me x,y or z...but if they are not here to confirm a claim that puts them in a negative light, I am not allowed to share it here...

to the members in general....now that every one has had yet another word on it, I want to be clear that it will be locked if it continues on in a contentious manner

 

[fascination]

there is plenty to explore and say positively about the richness of this style as was the original title of the thread...and again, further debate on this particular person will be deleted...further debate on moderation needs to go to staff mailbox...failure to comply may result in infractions/thread closure....thanks

 

[JohnEm]

This is largely true of the English Midlands too. Attending tango classes seems to be a popular hobby, while attending Milongas is not. If it were otherwise, someone would find it worthwhile to organise Milongas regularly: almost no one does.

And you are quite right about there being money in well-attended classes, and they work better in some styles of dance than others. For tango, they are a deeply flawed way to learn. But where in the world can you learn tango in the authentic way (in a strictly male-only amateur practica four or five nights a week; or if you are a women, at home, from your mother or sisters)? Not BsAs, certainly, for much of the last half-century.

As outsiders we cannot tell what teaching occurs between Argentines.
Even those who do dance regularly and teach one to one as a sideline
can overcharge the visitors (yes I have personal knowledge). Tourists
the World over are exploited as a source of easy revenue.

Men learning from men was of necessity originally and it isn't necessary
for tango any more than it is for ballroom. You may reason that it's useful
for perspective and I wouldn't argue with that.

I learned in my ballroom days that (really) small groups worked best
with lots of practise time. It encourages people to dance with a little
progressive learning. There is no leap into the unknown of the social
dance floor as actual dancing is part of the learning.

Where else in the world are more tango dreams shattered by a tourist-driven commercial teaching frenzy than those few square miles?

That depends on your point of view of course.
Many visitors go for the commercial tango learning experience.
They expect it, because it's what they have learnt at home,
they pay for it and they get it.

If a tourist goes on a tango holiday to learn in Buenos Aires
it's unlikely they will be taught the tango of the social milongas.
They are unlikely to know any better and it maybe all they want,
the experience but not the real dance.

If you go to dance in the crowded social milongas, that's a different
matter altogether. Your dream that you have learned BsAs social tango
at home and in preparation may well be shattered.