Molinete speed variations?

[Me]

Oh, nice posts Steve.

I don't like hard and fast rules, either. The acid test for me is to ask the dreaded "Why" question and see what I get. Most instructors will avoid answering. If I am persistant I generally end up with their justification for teaching the rule ("I read it from the *blah blah* syllabus" is a popular one) but never an explanation as to why the rule works or why it was created in the first place.

 

[Me]

Who says that timing them as "quick quick" means they have to be chasses?

Oops. I didn't mean it that way.

I was just puzzling in general over how a 'quick' could be assigned to a molinete unless the faster timing was forced onto a full step. I was thinking in slows and quicks (always a bad thing for me) and chasse is one example of a walking movement in tango (mentioned it was not in molinete, as I was ruling it out) that will naturally take less time to execute unless a slow is forced.

 

[MaggieB]

Lol. Well put!

There are times, with certain leaders, when I'm in a particular mood, and when I know and am really into the music...I'll do the molinete how I want to. What can I say?

YOU do that TOO??? So do I... shame on both of us huh??? It is one place in a dance that I feel I can "step to the beat of my own drummer"! I too go back to whatever speed the lead is hearing afterwards too....

 

[Angel HI]

Steve, your post http://www.dance-forums.com/showpost.php?p=486847&postcount=30 is very good. It was the not collecting in the vine that I was ?? earlier (as did someone after me). It is often understood that vines should collect in all dances. Even in american jazz dance, the vine when danced in a circle is called, guess what, a windmill (english translation of molinete). This seems to indicate that they should be danced the same. Thanks for the clarification; I liked it.

 

[Angel HI]

Love this. A lot!!!

 

[Twirly]

I've definitely heard both from various teachers. Seems to me that teachers who emphasise "always being ready for any step" and use a lot of variations hate the fact that there should be anything such as sequences in tango. They don't even believe in the side-back-side-forward, but want the follower to be prepared to do side-back-side-back etc if that is what the leaders decided to lead. Each step should be lead. The timing also, definitely no quick steps unless it's lead.

But, dancing in a typical Buenos Aires style milonga where there aren't really that many different steps, the timing is very very often the same, with quick and slow steps. Often it just feels more natural and fits the music.

Apparently even Gustavo Naveira said that the follower should do quick steps in the giro, and the leader should expect this. I think it was something like: everyone does quick steps anyway, so why fight it?

I still like each step to be lead, but with very common sequences, such as the giro and the ocho cortado, sometimes it feels that there is a set timing and sequence that is very common, and it's when you want to change this timing or sequence that you need to really focus on your lead.

I've noticed that it depends on who you are dancing with. You need to adapt. Some guys just want to start you off and then let you do your giro thing, which isn't at all what I was taught but I'm learning...

 

[Dave Bailey]

All teachers have names.

Ah, you know what I mean - when you've got someone billed as "Guest star, for one week only, all the way from..." etc., then it's more difficult to disagree with them, just because they're saying something different. After all, they may be right...

 

[Dave Bailey]

I've definitely heard both from various teachers. Seems to me that teachers who emphasise "always being ready for any step" and use a lot of variations hate the fact that there should be anything such as sequences in tango. They don't even believe in the side-back-side-forward, but want the follower to be prepared to do side-back-side-back etc if that is what the leaders decided to lead. Each step should be lead. The timing also, definitely no quick steps unless it's lead.

Yes, that's the way I understand it to work in principle. And I've led variations on the theme (such as the back-back thing) in practica, because it's a good exercise. And I think nuevo may be more suited for this sort of thing, given the music is less varied in tempo?

But in the real-world social dance, should leaders try to fight the pattern and timing conventions?

Apparently even Gustavo Naveira said that the follower should do quick steps in the giro, and the leader should expect this. I think it was something like: everyone does quick steps anyway, so why fight it?

Hmmm, so we're back at the start point...

 

[Peaches]

With regards to giros as circular grapevines or not, and the question of always collecting feet or not, and thinking about the most recent video posted where there is a beautiful molinete...

Here's another take on the giro--she does not always close her feet together, most notably on the back step...she swings her leg around. See about 2:39 and 2:48.

http://tangovideos.blogspot.com/2006/08/geraldine-javier-milonga.html

Just food for thought.

 

[Steve Pastor]

First of all, kudos to Peaches and MaggieB for "speaking up" while dancing AT.

All of the blah blah blah about how AT is, among many things, a conversation, isn't worth a darn if the women don't have anything to say or never say anything.
You are right on with what you are doing.

P.S. You probably know already, though, that it is not always appreciated by the men you are dancing with. More's the pity.

 

[Peaches]

It takes time and experience and confidence (IMHO, IME) to have something to say back. 2 years, and I'm just now starting to do it. And, for some of us, it takes being shown or told ways in which to "speak up."

And, of course, not every guy likes it or can handle it (or lead in such a way that I feel like I even have the opportunity).

 

[jhpark]

sometimes it's not that we don't appreciate it, but that we don't know what to do with it.

frex, say a follow slows down a couple beats of the molinete, then uses the built up energy to spring forward/faster the last couple beats.

if i notice this happening when I'm leading... i'm tempted to respond to my follow's slowing down by slowing down myself -- maybe she wants to do something with the extra time. but if her plan is to slingshot forward, i've totally ruined that by slowing down.

most likely, i'm oblivious to what she's doing until after she's done it, so i only notice it by the time she's doing the slingshot, so it's a moot point. but what if i do notice early enough to try to respond? how would i know the best response?

i guess that's the hardest part of the 'conversation' approach for me... don't know how best to respond to what feedback the follow is giving me.

 

[Steve Pastor]

The short answer, I think, is that there is no "best" response when you feel your partner doing something unusual. Think of it as a conversation. She says something. While there may be a "best" statement that you can make in reply to what she just said, at that point you are reciting dialogue.

How are you?
Good. Thanks. And you?

Converstion? Not yet, I'd say.

I probably miss reacting to something out of the ordinary the first time I feel it. But, if it comes around again, I try to be ready for it.
This is the same thing that happens when you as a leader lead some next step that your partner is not used to taking. Often they will miss it. I think it's fair game to try it again at least one more time.
What I've learned to do while dancing, is to feel where our momentum would most easily take us if we just went with it.
I've done whole dances with people who felt like they were "inviting" me to step a certain direction, because there was less of a connection on one side than the other. After the dance I sometimes ask if they had that in mind or if it was just happening. This gives them a heads up that I am "listening" to them as we dance.
When you find the right teacher, (if you haven't already) they will be able to explain to you how you can do changes of direction, etc.

Just as Peaches wrote regarding being able to "speak up" as a follower, it takes time to develop the ability to listen and react as a leader. Make sure your partners who enjoy "playing" while dancing know that you enjoy it. You might also ask them if they were doing something on purpose, if they had something in articular in mind, who they learned it from, etc. (Short converstions between songs or during cortinas, off the floor, etc)

 

[bordertangoman]

hmm if the partner is right i let them drive forward and use the energy for a pivot or somthing similar.

 

[Steve Pastor]

And another answer would be to let her determine the speed with which she is moving around you.
Some teachers teach that, just as the man supplies the energy as he moves around the woman in a calecita, the woman supplies the energy for the rotation in the molinete. So, if she wants to go slow, all she has to do is go slow.
If you get too far ahead of her with your lead, you aren't "listening".
Rather than lead/follow think about it as if you were leading a discussion, and she's is in the middle of a sentence. Or, you can tell that she is tying several thoughts together as she speaks. It would be impolite to interrupt her, and you won;t be showing much in the way of leadership skills. So, do your best to go with where you think she is going.
Maybe read Peaches post on the end of page 2, and MaggieB's following post to get (probably again) some follower's perspective.