Me too. I think I just had a stroke!
But, I like how this discussion has turned to rhythms vs. counts vs... oh, hell. Whatever Angel_HI said.
Molinete speed variations?
- Thread starter Dave Bailey
- Start date
Me too. I think I just had a stroke!
But, I like how this discussion has turned to rhythms vs. counts vs... oh, hell. Whatever Angel_HI said.
First, let me point out that I started this whole thing as an example of the fact that I believe there is no one "natural" way of doing the steps in the giro/molinete.
I should know by now where any mention of counts or quicks and slows will lead us.
Nevertheless, this has led me to pull out my music books, and have discussions with people who have played, and read music for years. Anytime I learn something new, or relearn something I'd forgotten, it's a good thing in my book.
In spite of all the protests, if dancers think more about how they move expresses what they are hearing, that's a good thing, too.
Angle is right, we certainly could go in a lot of directions here. I would sure like clarification for much of what he has written. But, for now, I'm finding it difficlut to find the right tone for my inquiries. So I'd better not.
I should know by now where any mention of counts or quicks and slows will lead us.
Nevertheless, this has led me to pull out my music books, and have discussions with people who have played, and read music for years. Anytime I learn something new, or relearn something I'd forgotten, it's a good thing in my book.
In spite of all the protests, if dancers think more about how they move expresses what they are hearing, that's a good thing, too.
Angle is right, we certainly could go in a lot of directions here. I would sure like clarification for much of what he has written. But, for now, I'm finding it difficlut to find the right tone for my inquiries. So I'd better not.
FWIW, I agree with you on that.
Let me try to explain what I was trying to communicate, and ask. To me, slow step means that you will be taking longer before you make the next step (ie. skipping some of the quick steps). They way you wrote sqq, I wasn't sure how much of a delay (on the slow) you were indicating before you took the two quick steps.
I'll use bold to indicate which steps on where I am typically stepping in a hypothetical Vals. Most of the time, I am not stepping on the 2 or 3 beat.
123 123 123 123 123 123 123 123 123 ....
or
S-- S-- S-- S-Q S-- S-- S-- S-Q S-- ...
I'm finding this thread very interesting, so I wish you would continue with your inquiries.
Angel HI
Well-Known Member
Understood, and very much agreed.
More understood, and even more agreed.
Having naught to do with this thread, this is something that I try to live by. I love to learn.
You have hit the very point that causes much controversy, or less intense, confusion. We have to learn that music is different for musicians and for dancers. There is a difference between beat, rhythm, timing, and melody; and we have to find them all melifluously in order to be the best that we can be.
Yeah...I know this often bears much discussion.
I hope "tone" doesn't mean "upset". I don't believe that my post came across as contentious or personal.
Peaches
Well-Known Member
Don't forget pulse and tempo!
I probably need a class on the dance terminology. I'm always thinking in music terminology (and often get confused).Ah, gotta love the differences between dance terminology and musical terminology!
Angel:
Naw, not upset at all. I just had to mull things over to figure out how I was going to approach things. And, I just got done with this paragraphs long thing about dancing vals, and I got greedy, and went to do "one more thing", and lost my place, and....
Now I have to start over again. Darn!
Rise and fall...
There's a triangle calculator at this url http://www.csgnetwork.com/righttricalc.html
I plugged in some numbers,and this is what I found.
I used 35 for the "leg" of the triangle, (the hypotonuese) because that's the length of the pants I wear.
First I took a step of 4 inches. In terms of the calculator, and the triangle, this works out to the b side being 2, and the c side being 35. When we are in mid stride we approximate an equilateral triangle. We will solve for one half of that trianlge.
The calculator finds that the a side, or the vertical component of the triangle is 34.77, a fall of only 0.06 inches.
Now I take a step of 24". We again divide by 2, so side a, or height, is 32.88, a "fall" of over 2".
This is a very simple model. Our legs, in fact bend downwards at the knee when we step, complicating this. And if we go up on our toes on the quick, we can more than make up for the tiny loss of height that goes with a tiny step, turning it into more "rise" when compared to the "fall" of the longer step.
Naw, not upset at all. I just had to mull things over to figure out how I was going to approach things. And, I just got done with this paragraphs long thing about dancing vals, and I got greedy, and went to do "one more thing", and lost my place, and....
Now I have to start over again. Darn!
Rise and fall...
There's a triangle calculator at this url http://www.csgnetwork.com/righttricalc.html
I plugged in some numbers,and this is what I found.
I used 35 for the "leg" of the triangle, (the hypotonuese) because that's the length of the pants I wear.
First I took a step of 4 inches. In terms of the calculator, and the triangle, this works out to the b side being 2, and the c side being 35. When we are in mid stride we approximate an equilateral triangle. We will solve for one half of that trianlge.
The calculator finds that the a side, or the vertical component of the triangle is 34.77, a fall of only 0.06 inches.
Now I take a step of 24". We again divide by 2, so side a, or height, is 32.88, a "fall" of over 2".
This is a very simple model. Our legs, in fact bend downwards at the knee when we step, complicating this. And if we go up on our toes on the quick, we can more than make up for the tiny loss of height that goes with a tiny step, turning it into more "rise" when compared to the "fall" of the longer step.
Vocals for waltz frequently use the following patern for lyrics
2/8...2/8........ 3/8
1/4 ..1/4.. dotted 1/4....1/4.... 1/4... 1/2
His...grip.......... on........the... Gos... pel
syncopated
1/4...1/4....1/4....1/4...1/4...followed by a dotted half
his....one.. claim...to... fame --------------------
Can you hear it in your head, Brothers and Sisters? (It's from Garth Brooks' Sevens album.)
All of these vocal phrases begin on the last note in a bar, and carry over into the next bar. I know how I would dance to this lyric.
So there it is in the "instrument" of the human voice.
Now, the same qqs vocal pattern isn't repeated throughout the entire song.
The syncopated 1/4 for "his", which follows a rest, gives "his one claim" a a quick slow slow feel. Also, the notation calls for the word "fame", or whichever instrument has this part, to be sustained for the duration of four quarter notes.
I hear all of this in vals, too. Musicians don't play the same thing over and over again without variation. If this were not the case, drum machines and synthsizers would have taken over completely, as many musicians feared back in the 60s, 70s, 80s....
So, sure, you can dance to different things in the music. And sure, you don't have to do the same thing all the time. But, the overall character of a waltz or a vals is ... waltz. When singers sing a waltz, it sounds like a waltz. If your dance doesn't feel or look like you are dancing a vals, you are not really expressing the music. So choose wisely.
(When dancing a molinete, too.)
2/8...2/8........ 3/8
1/4 ..1/4.. dotted 1/4....1/4.... 1/4... 1/2
His...grip.......... on........the... Gos... pel
syncopated
1/4...1/4....1/4....1/4...1/4...followed by a dotted half
his....one.. claim...to... fame --------------------
Can you hear it in your head, Brothers and Sisters? (It's from Garth Brooks' Sevens album.)
All of these vocal phrases begin on the last note in a bar, and carry over into the next bar. I know how I would dance to this lyric.
So there it is in the "instrument" of the human voice.
Now, the same qqs vocal pattern isn't repeated throughout the entire song.
The syncopated 1/4 for "his", which follows a rest, gives "his one claim" a a quick slow slow feel. Also, the notation calls for the word "fame", or whichever instrument has this part, to be sustained for the duration of four quarter notes.
I hear all of this in vals, too. Musicians don't play the same thing over and over again without variation. If this were not the case, drum machines and synthsizers would have taken over completely, as many musicians feared back in the 60s, 70s, 80s....
So, sure, you can dance to different things in the music. And sure, you don't have to do the same thing all the time. But, the overall character of a waltz or a vals is ... waltz. When singers sing a waltz, it sounds like a waltz. If your dance doesn't feel or look like you are dancing a vals, you are not really expressing the music. So choose wisely.
(When dancing a molinete, too.)
Angel HI
Well-Known Member
YOU ARE NOT ALONE!!!!! :headwall: :headwall: :headwall:
STEVE, YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING! The length of your pants, and the lyrics of Garth Brooks' "...The syncopated 1/4 for "his..." This is a faaaarrrrrr stretch to prove a point.
I'll concede.
It is common knowledge that all music, even waltz, is written in 8s. But, nonetheless, again, you are mixing beats (is and 2s) with rhythms (slows and quicks)...2 entirely different things. And, further, understand that standard waltz (1,2,3) and C/W (Brooks) waltz (1, 23) are also entirely different waltzes.
Angel HI
Well-Known Member
Ah, gotta love the differences between dance terminology and musical terminology!
Yes, it is very interesting. When dancing, I must think as a dancer; when playing my piano or percussion, I must think as a musician. I learned very early that it is 2 completely different concepts re the same thing.
My apologies to anyone who has a headache over the thread. I may have misinterpreted dchester's sentence, "I'm finding this thread very interesting, so I wish you would continue with your inquiries."
Discussion of waltz is crucial to understanding how you dance to it. If I had sheet music for Argentine Tangos, I would look there, and use those examples. I use the resources that I have.
And, Vienesse, country western, or Argentine Tango vals, a waltz is a waltz is a waltz.
And, we are talking about the timing of steps when you do a molinete.
And I hit upon the example of doing it to vals to support the argument that the timing can vary.
If there is nothing in the music to indicate otherwise, you could step whenever. But waltz is different than songs in 4/4. I am trying to understand why that is, and how it is related to how you dance to it.
If you have a substantive argument why any of this is wrong, including rise and fall, please present it.
Dismissing the whole thing out of hand is not very persuasive.
Oh,
Daddy played bass (dotted half notes lasting 3 quarter notes)
Momma played drum kit (qqs)
Me and little brother joined right in there
See, I'm not upset. I'm just developing and presenting my arguments, and expecting people who disagree to do the same.
Discussion of waltz is crucial to understanding how you dance to it. If I had sheet music for Argentine Tangos, I would look there, and use those examples. I use the resources that I have.
And, Vienesse, country western, or Argentine Tango vals, a waltz is a waltz is a waltz.
And, we are talking about the timing of steps when you do a molinete.
And I hit upon the example of doing it to vals to support the argument that the timing can vary.
If there is nothing in the music to indicate otherwise, you could step whenever. But waltz is different than songs in 4/4. I am trying to understand why that is, and how it is related to how you dance to it.
If you have a substantive argument why any of this is wrong, including rise and fall, please present it.
Dismissing the whole thing out of hand is not very persuasive.
Oh,
Daddy played bass (dotted half notes lasting 3 quarter notes)
Momma played drum kit (qqs)
Me and little brother joined right in there
See, I'm not upset. I'm just developing and presenting my arguments, and expecting people who disagree to do the same.