Name this dance

[JohnEm]

Caminito, welcome to the DF, and thanks for that... it's a good post.

John, I see no reason why this would/could not be very relevant today.

Oh it most certainly is and had no intention of indicating otherwise.
My point is how can tango of the heart and soul be learnt today?

Here is one way, courtesy of a post in the last few hours by Keith Elshaw
on Tango-L which I hope he doesn't mind me posting here:

As time goes by, I see my thinking is not very mainstream.
My path as a social dancer has lead me far away from how things are done
by most people about teaching and giving advice.

For the last few years, my way has been to say to people who come to me
to learn tango, "No one ever took a class in Argentina. You just danced
with your family and friends on the weekend and picked-up things."
It's not something to learn so much as it's something to do.

When I teach, it is informal and social and I try to get people's mind's
to go to the tango dream state. I am really only interested in their bodies
and muscles "learning" things. Well, I want their minds to register which
orquesta is playing and how one can move to them all in a different way.

I recently wrote on my website:

So, it's true ... a lot of what I share with people is a de-bunking of what/how
people learn in traditional tango classes. . . . It's supposed to be more organic
than it is traditionally taught. And I am always talking about the orquestas
and showing how to move with this-or-that kind of music.

Proper body position so leading/following is "automatic" based on what the music
and movement suggests. Nice walks; nice ochos; nice gyros; nice little thingy
when the music slows down; conversation with your partner (leaders "waiting"
for the follower in the right places); stop naturally when the music stops.

And for the sake of completeness, a link to his site with more musings:
http://www.totango.net/

There's lot of relevance in this quote credited to Daniel Trenner:

"Before you learn to dance tango, you first have to learn how to dance.
But some people try to dance tango without going through dance."

Perhaps I'd modify that to first you have to learn how to move and then
learn how to move with a partner.

 

[JohnEm]

what Vidort would have thought of it, I dont know, but my experince of being taught by Argentine teachers who dance Villa Urquiza is that balance, posture, embrace, Dissociation even details about where I point my big toe, are just as important as other forms of tango.

What Ricardo Vidort would have thought about it is in his quoted words earlier.

Villa Urquiza is a dreamt up name by argentinian professional dancers teaching
a so-called elegant style motivated by money which no doubt they would say
is merely satisfying the market. It is the capitalist entrepreneurial way
and that comes from someone who has plenty of practical entrepreneurial
experience. You could even argue that is the tango of its time,
being a sort of visual quick fix.

You make my point - how to point your big toe is not part of Tango to do,
but it may be of tango to watch. It reminds me of a teacher recently
who insisted to the group that open-hold giros should look neat and squared.
I couldn't help but think at the time "but I'm round, and my partner
is going around me, not a chair".

it may be that visitng teachers come with an expectation that we know how to balance, because they arent aware beforehand of what the problems of UK/European dancers are.

I heard from a dance friend at the weekend the problems even extend
to not being able to work out or identify a waltz rhythm.
No wonder people don't dance to the music.

Is your view the VU style is a sterilised homogenised form of tango
or that VU has been sterilised and homogenised by EU directives?

LoL! The EU hasn't caught up yet but UNESCO has.
What will it be that they artificially preserve?

 

[Dave Bailey]

For the last few years, my way has been to say to people who come to me to learn tango, "No one ever took a class in Argentina. You just danced with your family and friends on the weekend and picked-up things." It's not something to learn so much as it's something to do.

Blimey, shades of the many-dotted one.... .... ....

I'm fairly sure that comparing the way tango is learnt in Argentina is an integral part of Argentine culture. If you grew up in BsAs in the Golden Age, you'd likely be immersed in - or at least familiar with - the music and the movements from an early age. So you would have less need to be formally-taught. Although I still think there's a place for formal teaching, even then.

However, I'm also fairly sure that trying to port this "method" over to a culture in which you're not exposed to Tango from birth is a very very very bad idea.

 

[bordertangoman]

Blimey, shades of the many-dotted one.... .... ....

I'm fairly sure that comparing the way tango is learnt in Argentina is an integral part of Argentine culture. If you grew up in BsAs in the Golden Age, you'd likely be immersed in - or at least familiar with - the music and the movements from an early age. So you would have less need to be formally-taught. Although I still think there's a place for formal teaching, even then.

However, I'm also fairly sure that trying to port this "method" over to a culture in which you're not exposed to Tango from birth is a very very very bad idea.

along with "Disappearances", and machismo

 

[bordertangoman]

What Ricardo Vidort would have thought about it is in his quoted words earlier.

Villa Urquiza is a dreamt up name by argentinian professional dancers teaching
a so-called elegant style motivated by money which no doubt they would say
is merely satisfying the market. It is the capitalist entrepreneurial way
and that comes from someone who has plenty of practical entrepreneurial
experience. You could even argue that is the tango of its time,
being a sort of visual quick fix.

Vidort could be wrong: here's a different opinion...

However, for disc jockey Horacio Godoy the future is in Villa Urquiza. Teachers Vilma Heredia and Gabriel Angió also agree that many young people are focusing their attention to the floor of the old Sunderland Club of Villa Urquiza, where they still can watch the habituÃas of half century ago. "Urquiza is what it's coming," prophesies Godoy. "There is a group of kids that realized that the maximum wealth is there. I am not talking about figures, it's about the musicality and the quality of the movement. It's about a wealth of knowledge so subtle and complex that for the ordinary eye is imperceptible. "

I heard from a dance friend at the weekend the problems even extend to not being able to work out or identify a waltz rhythm.

that's jivers for you.....but why do you assume that people have specific musical knowledge because you do. And you assume because they dont know what it is that they're hearing that they dont hear it which is not the same. Favourite Things; Chim-chim-charroo have the same time signature as waltz, but waltzes can sound very different to each other.

I cant hear the One beat in salsa; but I hear more than most people of the different instruments going on. But hearing a 3-3-2 tango rhythm now that's a bit tricky...

how to point your big toe is not part of Tango to do,
but it may be of tango to watch.

that's bull...

using the big toe is about technique; where you use the ball of the foot to control your arrival and balance and take off..as any good dancer would.

 

[JohnEm]

Blimey, shades of the many-dotted one.... .... ....

Yes, that's very much where the dotted one gets it from.
My objection was not what he was saying so much as
the negativity and the lack of positive practical suggestions.
At least Keith Elshaw has one suggestion which he puts into practice.

Jill Barrett had another idea recently over here.
And as she knew Ricardo Vidort well,
that might have been interesting to experience.

I'm fairly sure that comparing the way tango is learnt in Argentina is an integral part of Argentine culture. If you grew up in BsAs in the Golden Age, you'd likely be immersed in - or at least familiar with - the music and the movements from an early age. So you would have less need to be formally-taught. Although I still think there's a place for formal teaching, even then.

Yes there clearly was some formal teaching. Rick McGarrey on TangoandChaos
confirms that. Referring again to Ricardo Vidort he taught either one to one
or small groups a small run of lessons and then sent his "students" off to dance
to find their own tango. That doesn't seem to be done here but it could be.
Instead we have levels, hierarchies, tango snobbery and a sort of lock-in
to classes. It's a shame.

However, I'm also fairly sure that trying to port this "method" over to a culture in which you're not exposed to Tango from birth is a very very very bad idea.

The big difference here is the more the unfamiliar music rather than the dance itself.
I found it very difficult and was used to ballroom tango music which has been
back-influenced by that fairly awful early derivation of AT.

And we should always be very careful about a too slavish comparison
with BsAs. Like any dance environment, there were and are good
and bad dancers there; just look beyond the concentration of milonga videos
on a star dancer and watch the background dancers. Often not quite so good.

 

[JohnEm]

Vidort could be wrong: here's a different opinion...

However, for disc jockey Horacio Godoy the future is in Villa Urquiza. Teachers Vilma Heredia and Gabriel Angió also agree that many young people are focusing their attention to the floor of the old Sunderland Club of Villa Urquiza, where they still can watch the habituÃas of half century ago. "Urquiza is what it's coming," prophesies Godoy. "There is a group of kids that realized that the maximum wealth is there. I am not talking about figures, it's about the musicality and the quality of the movement. It's about a wealth of knowledge so subtle and complex that for the ordinary eye is imperceptible. "

Urquiza has already come. Read what jantango has to say, watch the latest videos
of the recent salon competition. Sterile, unimaginative and visual is what it is.
There was plenty of it at Tango Alfresco recently (along with Nuevo) with
its stationary moves and sticky out elbows.

You quote a DJ and teachers; says it all really.

that's jivers for you.....but why do you assume that people have specific musical knowledge because you do. And you assume because they dont know what it is that they're hearing that they dont hear it which is not the same. Favourite Things; Chim-chim-charroo have the same time signature as waltz, but waltzes can sound very different to each other.

I never mentioned jivers, they were apparently tango dancers
at a well known tango week so you'd think they were keen and had
at least some experience. But they apparently had real difficulty to the extent
that the teachers had to resort to other methods to get an understanding.
Let's not get hung up on this one.

that's bull...

using the big toe is about technique; where you use the ball of the foot to control your arrival and balance and take off..as any good dancer would.

You make my point again. Tango is a grounded people's dance.
All sorts of different things are taught mainly by people bringing
other dance influences to tango and making tango "better" in their opinion.

In fact I come from other dance influences. I've done toe leads, heel leads,
sliding of the foot and not, rolling the foot in WCS, dance on your balls
(see Ceroc Scotland forum) for jive, weight forward for latin, weight back
for ballroom, over your feet and biased forward for jive, etc, etc, etc.

Another trite tango comment is about "respecting the dance".
How do you mysteriously respect a dance? For me that is recognising
its differences, acknowledging its musical influences etc.
Tango was evolved by its participants, no-one seemingly deconstructed it
until maybe the Dinzels and certainly the Nuevo study group did.

If you think the social tango at its best is milonguero, that is without doubt
an example of form following function. How best do you dance in an embrace,
not fall over each other's feet and move.

Villa Urquiza is a different solution - devised for elegance, maybe an
elegance milonguero hasn't got, devised to avoid a chest to chest connection,
devised to avoid the body core tone/strength that milonguero requires,
devised to make tango more "accessible" maybe.

 

[bordertangoman]

i dont take anything Jantango says too seriously; she has her own agenda and has a subjective viewpoint.

Your perception of Villa Urquiza should be coloured by references such as this...

http://tangovoice.wordpress.com/201...o-estilo-del-centro-versus-estilo-milonguero/

I just think people who say "that style is not as good as the one I do....."

I dont dance VA or milonguero or nuevo or salon I just dance tango its probably Villa Wem style but who cares, I can dance with the nicest neo/nuevos from Oop North, a Villa Urquiza teacher who was great fun to dance with becuase she was good not because of any "style" and an Argentine lady who I'd never met before..didnt even know she was until we chatted betweeen songs,i dont even dance/not dance apilado style; its just who I'm with and if they can lean without collapsing or falling over....

 

[Dave Bailey]

Jill Barrett had another idea recently over here.
And as she knew Ricardo Vidort well,
that might have been interesting to experience.

I'd be interested to know more details?

The big difference here is the more the unfamiliar music rather than the dance itself.

Yes, but there's also the unusual posture (unlike most common UK dances) - and to a lesser extent the progressive nature of the dance I think.

And we should always be very careful about a too slavish comparison with BsAs.

I agree - that's one of the good points I think was made in the "Dear Simone" letter.

 

[JohnEm]

i dont take anything Jantango says too seriously; she has her own agenda and has a subjective viewpoint.

All viewpoints in dance are subjective.

Your perception of Villa Urquiza should be coloured by references such as this...

http://tangovoice.wordpress.com/201...o-estilo-del-centro-versus-estilo-milonguero/

I just think people who say "that style is not as good as the one I do....."

TangoVoice seems to be quite authoritive though it would be better if we knew
just who the authority is rather than anonimity.

You are using the historical origins of VU to justify the present.
I could argue that it was VU I learned but it was closer to the historical version,
which ironically has all but disappeared from the area (see Sunderland Club
videos) in favour of a more milonguero style. But the point made to me at the time
was that the basis was milonguero/apilado and the opening out occurred
when space allowed.

But today's VU is not the golden age VU. Now it seems to be upright all the time
with a lower embrace by the man's right arm (around just above the waist often)
and the surrounding the man's right arm by the lady's left.

And, oh dear! I danced with my teacher of the time recently only to discover
that she has changed her embrace from the milonguero up the man's right arm,
over the shoulder and around the neck to today's fashion of surrounding my
right arm with her left and her hand placed on the right side of my back.

I dont dance VA or milonguero or nuevo or salon I just dance tango its probably Villa Wem style but who cares, I can dance with the nicest neo/nuevos from Oop North, a Villa Urquiza teacher who was great fun to dance with becuase she was good not because of any "style" and an Argentine lady who I'd never met before..didnt even know she was until we chatted betweeen songs,i dont even dance/not dance apilado style; its just who I'm with and if they can lean without collapsing or falling over....

Lucky you. The old argentine's say there are no styles, just salon.
And you find your own way.

However, you do express views as a teacher.

 

[bordertangoman]

All viewpoints in dance are subjective.

TangoVoice seems to be quite authoritive though it would be better if we knew
just who the authority is rather than anonimity.

You are using the historical origins of VU to justify the present.
I could argue that it was VU I learned but it was closer to the historical version,
which ironically has all but disappeared from the area (see Sunderland Club
videos) in favour of a more milonguero style. But the point made to me at the time
was that the basis was milonguero/apilado and the opening out occurred
when space allowed.

But today's VU is not the golden age VU. Now it seems to be upright all the time
with a lower embrace by the man's right arm (around just above the waist often)
and the surrounding the man's right arm by the lady's left.

And, oh dear! I danced with my teacher of the time recently only to discover
that she has changed her embrace from the milonguero up the man's right arm,
over the shoulder and around the neck to today's fashion of surrounding my
right arm with her left and her hand placed on the right side of my back.


Lucky you. The old argentine's say there are no styles, just salon.
And you find your own way.

However, you do express views as a teacher.

IN uk its saloon, mate, Salon is a friggin hairdressers!

 

[JohnEm]

I'd be interested to know more details?

On the tango-uk group mailing list there was an exchange between
Jill and the dotty one .
Just search on the list for Jill Barrett.

Yes, but there's also the unusual posture (unlike most common UK dances) - and to a lesser extent the progressive nature of the dance I think.

True enough. The unusual posture caused me many problems and others
I've seen who abandon it because they can't take the pain, both literally
and metaphorically.

 

[JohnEm]

IN uk its saloon, mate, Salon is a friggin hairdressers!

So your hairstyle is all spiky then

 

[Madahlia]

IN uk its saloon, mate, Salon is a friggin hairdressers!

In the UK saloon is the spit'n'sawdust section of a pub. Nobody ever danced tango in a saloon in England any more than at the hairdresser's.

Or maybe one of those funny little cars we used to have before hatchbacks.

 

[bordertangoman]

In the UK saloon is the spit'n'sawdust section of a pub. Nobody ever danced tango in a saloon in England any more than at the hairdresser's.

Or maybe one of those funny little cars we used to have before hatchbacks.

closer to a barrio then innit lol;