ProgressNotPerfection
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Question from ignorant newbie here: do collegiate comps allow pro/am entries?
NDCA Multi/Scholarship Qualifications
- Thread starter DanceDrummer
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Just to clarify, @lucia_l, when I talk about "merging" levels, I mean sticking to Newcomer/Bronze/Silver/Gold, (Novice)/Prechamp/Champ, plus Adult/Senior age groups. The fragmentation that bothers me is Silver 1/Silver 2/Full Silver/Open Silver, multiplied by every syllabus level and age, and to a lesser degree slicing age categories at 5 years for seniors and 1-2 years for juniors. I don't usually see am-am couples ponying up for all of them, so you get 1-3 per event instead of 8-15 couples all dancing together.
As lucia rightly says, different organizations to serve different needs and audiences.
EDIT: That said, collegiate comps usually have a TBA list for folks without a steady partner. You specify your level, style, and role, get matched up with someone else on the TBA list, and compete just that one event together. Speed-date dancing, basically. It's a crapshoot of an experience in every sense, but is an easy way to access the event for low organizational cost. Not for the faint of heart, though!
They don't. The collegiate scene is designed to cater to college dance clubs and teams. Entry is open to the public, no questions asked, but everything is optimized for am-am couples with weak personal finances.
As lucia rightly says, different organizations to serve different needs and audiences.
EDIT: That said, collegiate comps usually have a TBA list for folks without a steady partner. You specify your level, style, and role, get matched up with someone else on the TBA list, and compete just that one event together. Speed-date dancing, basically. It's a crapshoot of an experience in every sense, but is an easy way to access the event for low organizational cost. Not for the faint of heart, though!
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raindance
Forum Master
Unless things have changed, no. But I encourage you to go spectate at one if you ever get the chance!
ProgressNotPerfection
Forum Master
Is that the same as Jack & Jill?
Similar, but not quite
You stick with one partner through the entire event, are judged together as a couple rather than as individuals, and usually get your pairing in advance, so you can get to know your partner a little bit (and maybe even meet them for a practice, if they are local enough).
Unlike Jack & Jill events, it isn't designed to showcase and reward versatility and responsiveness as a dancer. It's just a way to maximize participation by any means.
In the Jack and Jills I've seen nobody dances with their usual partner. And then there's a second heat (or more) which helps out when a first partner really drags a dancer down.
PNP.
This has info for competitors at the National Collegiate Dancesport Championships:
https://usadancencdc.org/competitors/
I don't know if this covers some, most or all Collegiate Dancesport dances. Nothing is said about pro-Am. You can see that it is quite different from the feeling of NDCA.
It is organized mostly for "collegiate". Notably,
"Only college dancers are eligible for titles or to participate in the team matches."
Flashy costumes are either not allowed or discouraged at the lower levels.
The next url has heat lists. There doesn't seem to be any separate entry for "pro-am", "am-am" (which may not mean anything.)
https://usadancencdc.org/generalinformation/
https://usadancencdc.org/generalinformation/
This has info for competitors at the National Collegiate Dancesport Championships:
https://usadancencdc.org/competitors/
I don't know if this covers some, most or all Collegiate Dancesport dances. Nothing is said about pro-Am. You can see that it is quite different from the feeling of NDCA.
It is organized mostly for "collegiate". Notably,
"Only college dancers are eligible for titles or to participate in the team matches."
Flashy costumes are either not allowed or discouraged at the lower levels.
The next url has heat lists. There doesn't seem to be any separate entry for "pro-am", "am-am" (which may not mean anything.)
https://usadancencdc.org/generalinformation/
https://usadancencdc.org/generalinformation/
I'm sorry if my tangent is derailing the thread....
Just for the sake of maximum clarity. USA Dance's Collegiate events are basically just another age level division within the USA Dance structure. They are not the same as the college competition circuit.
College comps are usually independently run by the college's ballroom dance team. They have no coordination with one another, and no affiliation with either of the Big Two organizations. Essentially none of the USA Dance restrictions apply--age, student status, costumes, any of it.
Just for the sake of maximum clarity. USA Dance's Collegiate events are basically just another age level division within the USA Dance structure. They are not the same as the college competition circuit.
College comps are usually independently run by the college's ballroom dance team. They have no coordination with one another, and no affiliation with either of the Big Two organizations. Essentially none of the USA Dance restrictions apply--age, student status, costumes, any of it.
I'm Bronze. I like having Bronze split into newcomer, 1, 2 full! Are you proposing getting rid of that? I wouldn't mind if they
Also, I'm puzzled, would you not have "open" and "closed" separate to separate those doing syllabus and those deviating? I like the opportunity to do both!
Perhaps am-am can be treated differently from pro-am and have fewer splits. I don't really know what would attract or fail to attract am-ams because I have no am partner and no reasonable prospect of finding one who meets my criteria. (These would include: possible rehearsal schedule that matches mine, desire to practice about the same amount as I do, ambition about same as mine and so on and so on. Of course, they have to want to think I'm a suitable dance partner too!)
I might consider doing this at Collegiate prices especially if the competition was in reasonable driving distance. I'd never pay NDCA prices for the crapshoot experience of dancing with someone from the TBA list!
Well, the more you know! You're the first person I've met to positively defend this approach. Now I want to pick your brain about it
Yes, those divisions are precisely the ones I'd do away with. IMO, winning Bronze 1 in a fragmented field tells you less about your performance than finishing in the top half of a combined Bronze event, even if you perform exactly the same in both cases. Sample size and selection bias and so forth.
I do competitions primarily in order to get a measure of feedback on my skills, and highly fragmented fields are much less effective for that.
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As for Open vs Closed. Yes, I'd be fine eliminating Open categories below, well, Open. Two reasons for that.
First, as stated above, I compete to get feedback. At low levels, technique is the primary differentiator. Technique is easier to judge when everyone is doing a similar set of figures. Open routines are potentially a distraction from that.
Second, I myself love to do crazy open moves, but I do them in Showcases. I see showcases as the best place to explore the artistic and creative side of dance, whereas competitions center on the sporting aspect.
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That's just, like, my opinion, man. I make no claim to be somehow right about any of this.
Warren J. Dew
Forum Master
Back in the 1980s-1990s, NDCA amateur competitions had only Bronze/Silver/Gold/Prechamp/Champ. It was not a sustainable model long term for adult amateur competitions, at least not the way things actually happened.
The system was designed for people to win in a category, then move up to the next category and compete there, not winning for a while, until they could get to the top there. What actually happened was that most people strongly preferred to continue winning a lower category rather than moving up to a higher category and not win. People sandbagged, people cheated, people pressured USABDA to change its rules so they didn't have to move up. It used to be that you were supposed to move up after three wins - still potentially a very long time - but now it's three wins at an event with a quarterfinal, which is almost never. This is extremely unattractive to people who are just starting, who end up spending years in Bronze with no visible progress in their results, even if their dancing is improving.
Last I checked, the rule in pro-am was supposed to be that you move up after one win. That's partly because the rules are set by professionals and organizers, not by the students, so they are set up for the benefit of the overall community, not for the individual competitors, addressing some Tragedy of the Commons type issues.
Collegiate is a different situation. Most people don't move up categories due to points; rather, they move up due to time, since the Novice and Bronze categories are time limited. That works for a target population that is only going to stay there for a few years. It's nice that they let adults and juniors horn in on the action, but the collegiate system wouldn't be sustainable if it weren't for the large numbers of actual collegiate entries.
I think the Juvenile system is set up well. Single dance events are sliced thin. Multidance events have the divisions you prefer. You don't have to enter single dance events to dance in multidance events. In principle, this permits couples to enter small single dance events in the hopes of winning, and large multidance events for the experience.
In practice in the Boston area, everyone enters the single dance events. Only the more serious couples enter the multidance events. I'm not sure why this is; maybe it's a very price sensitive market. I also think this may reverse in the greater New York area, but unfortunately I don't know for sure because Tristate was shut down this year as part of Connecticut's strategy to compete with New York for the Covid-19 crown. Yes, I'm bitter.
Two year age categories are actually arguably too big for juveniles and juniors. 11 year old at the Eastern US, for example, was close to a foot taller and likely a year and a half older than her two competitors in her 10-11 category. The others had basically no chance against her. She would have absolutely no chance when she is a young 12 this fall against postpubertal 15 year olds; it will be tough enough against 13 year olds.
Yes, there is a tradeoff with narrower age categories meaning more small and uncontested events. In this market at least, most people prefer uncontested or 2 person events with a good chance to win over larger events where you have no chance of winning no matter how hard you work.
DanceDrummer
Active Member
Warren J. Dew
Forum Master
At that event, the information under Register | Rules says, in part:
"Students must be entered in a minimum of four single dances per scholarship entered."
check the rules page: https://1fb514aa-0a6e-4f03-8001-e13...d/16ebaa_97e26a845b0a4195b007105678184d24.pdfDoes anyone know how to tell if the Organizer at this event requires singles to qualify for Multi or Scholarships & how many?
Schedule
www.sapphiredancesport.org
9. Scholarships must have a minimum of three entries per division. If less than three entries, prize money will be half of the listed amounts.
10. Students must be entered in a minimum of four single dances per scholarship entered.
DanceDrummer
Active Member
Ok geez, thanks, I didn't think it be in those rules. Whats the reasoning behind not allowing entries in both Closed & Open?
16. All scholarship events are unisex, open to adults only. Students may enter closed or open scholarship events, but not both.
16. All scholarship events are unisex, open to adults only. Students may enter closed or open scholarship events, but not both.
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