No DanceSport at the 2020 Olympics :(

[bia]

I was reminded of this thread and my old comment when I saw this article today arguing that combining rhinestones/makeup with athletic competition is ridiculous and sexist:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/these-women-are-olympic-athletes-why-do-they-have-to-look-like-showgirls/2016/08/19/94f31574-6627-11e6-be4e-23fc4d4d12b4_story.html?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-low_prettysports-913am:homepage/story

There are various ideas there that could be discussed, but it's just one more data point toward the idea that Olympic dancesport would likely get more ridicule than respect. (This writer is arguing for respect despite the costuming, but she she wouldn't need to if the ridicule weren't out there, and she's reinforcing the idea of the incompatability.) Not that I think the inclusion is ever happening, in any case.

My way old comment:

Every Olympics inspires discussion in the general public about events that they don't normally pay attention to. And part of that discussion always involves ridiculing some events as not sports and unworthy of inclusion. A lot of it has to do with the perceived illegitimacy of results based on subjective judging, but rhinestones and makeup get their share of ridicule, too. Hit-you-in-the-face athleticism (e.g., in gymnastics) can mitigate some of it, but not all. While there's no question that top dancers are incredible athletes, ballroom dancing simply does not not include that kind of blatant athleticism, evident to the uninformed eye. (After all, the point is to make it look easy.) And there is no way that I can think of to make the judging "objective" enough to make sense to the uninformed -- people have enough trouble with diving, where everyone can see the splash, and there are straightforward ways to evaluate difficulty. So I think that inclusion would garner more negative than positive attention. I would rather have ballroom get attention and appreciation for what it is, rather than trying to squeeze itself into a badly-fitting box.

 

[Bailamosdance]

Now, if we can only convice the 'dreamers' to free up the money time and energy they are expending towards this, to actually advancing dance...

 

[Dancing Irishman]

Bia, I'm pretty sure I liked your original post, and I only agree more with the sentiment now. Ballroom's going to deal with the after effects of our Quixotic pursuit of Olympic inclusion for a while, and I'm not sure our art-sport (or sport-art) is better for it.

On the plus side, all signs point to my other niche athletic activity, ultimate frisbee, being on the short list for new sports in a future Olympics (and deservedly).

 

[bia]

All this said, I'm not at all against increasing exposure for ballroom within the sports context. I would love it if major dancesport competitions could be covered matter-of-fact-ly on sports channels, as they are in Europe (right? Europeans, please correct me if I'm wrong). With framing and commentary focused on the skill rather than the glitz. What's already shown on those channels is already broad enough (e.g., poker!?) to allow inclusion without contortion. I don't know how to make that happen, though. For the channels, of course, I'm sure all decisions are about ratings (money). (And they don't show most Olympic sports either, except during the Olympics.)

 

[s2k]

Of all those running for USA Dance offices in this upcoming election, have any developed a written, specific position on Dancesport in the Olympics? Or OLYMPIAN DANCEPORT: gods in togas dancing boto fogos.

 

[Mr 4 styles]

I watched team rhythmic gymnastics and the first think I thought was... to show the whole floor they looked so far away. And it's smaller than a ballroom floor . I concluded that a heat of 12 is bad TV no way around it

 

[Loki]

[...]all signs point to my other niche athletic activity, ultimate frisbee, being on the short list for new sports in a future Olympics (and deservedly).

Don't forget beer pong!

 

[tangotime]

I would love it if major dancesport competitions could be covered matter-of-fact-ly on sports channels, as they are in Europe (right? Europeans,

I believe the last time a live contested dance event was broadcast , it was a salsa comp, and that , was several years back .(I'm in the UK )

 

[pascal]

dancesport competitions could be covered matter-of-fact-ly on sports channels, as they are in Europe

Only saw it happen once. An event in Paris, covered by one of our four major channels (by then).
It was a pain to see. The main commentator was clueless (usually he comments ice skating). He was helped by a female former competitor, hired only for the event and who knew everyone and everything but had no time to explain anything coz' the cameraman was changing the focus all the time.

 

[Mr 4 styles]

it won't work for so many reasons.... please give it up!!

 

[Renata Shvarts]

Of all those running for USA Dance offices in this upcoming election, have any developed a written, specific position on Dancesport in the Olympics? Or OLYMPIAN DANCEPORT: gods in togas dancing boto fogos.

I have a very strong opinion on the Olympic movement for DanceSport. I think it is very important for for us to continue to work toward having DanceSport in Summer Olympic Games. There are many reasons as to why.

We as a dance community need to move forward for the sake of our future survival as a sport or art (what ever you consider ballroom dancing to be). WDSF considers it a sport hence the Olympic dream is very relevant goal to achieve.
We can't think about today only, we need to consider where our dance community will be in 10,20 30 years. What future are we building for our next generation of dancers?

Money, yes money is very important because it makes the world go around. Those sports that are part of the Olympic Games get huge financial help from government, sponsors and Olympic Committees of every civilized country. In many countries if you are recognized as a sport (DanceSport is a recognized sport) National Olympic Committees help you with grands. Dancers from those countries see huge benefits already. This extra money is being used to help athletes (dancers) with trips over seas, training and costumes. Sadly United States is not one of them Our dancers don't get help from them.

Sponsorship is never going to be available to our dancers. You will say what is she talking about? Dancers get sponsored all the time. True, with what? A free pair of shoes? A dress that you have to ether sell or give back to the dress maker? Can we compare this sponsorship to what athletes who's sports are in Olympic Games get? Speedos just pulled $50,000 sponsorship from Ryan Lochte. That means that Speedos gave him that money in the first place. And that is just one sponsor. Team USA across all sports in Rio had sponsorship from Coca Cola, Bridgestone, Mc Donald's, Omega, General Electric, Panasonic, Visa, Samsung and more. Beats free dance shoes don't you think?

Prize money doesn't seem to grow with inflation. I was dancing as a pro twenty years ago and first place in Rising Star was $500 and in Open Pro was $1000. Twenty years later I randomly picked a competition from NDCA calendar from this weekend. Rising Star is $400 and in Open Pro is $1000. Took a huge comp from next weekend and Rising Star is $500 and in Open Pro is $1000. Only the very top few competitions in NDCA offer at most $2500 for 1st place and unfortunately only $500 for Rising Star but majority stay within $1500 range and under. Twenty years passed but not much changed. To compare I will tell you about a very eye opening conversation I have in 1998 with Olympic silver ice dancing medalist. Nineteen years ago he told me that usually at world or world open competitions in figure skating prize purse was $25000, $30000 for the first place. Don't we want the same for our future dancers?

I can go on and on and on but I will stop here for now. To answer the original question of what is my specific position on Dancesport in the Olympics (as a person who is running for DanceSport VP of USA Dance)I will say that I will do everything to ensure our athletes have a future in this business. And I believe that recognition of DanceSport as a sport was the first step, including DanceSport in World Games was the 2nd step, Putting it in the Olympics will be the next step and it will happen sooner or later. And that is the future I want.

 

[Dancing Irishman]

Renata, your argument seems to rest, in part, on an assumption that Dancesport in the Olympics will somehow net it the kind of coverage much more telegenic, popular, and storied sports like swimming, track and field, and gymnastics have. It almost certainly won't, there are already plenty of niche sports that get barely any media attention during the summer olympics.

Prize purses may not have scaled up much, but does that matter too much financially to a professional dancer? Those that make money from teaching (probably the overwhelming majority of all competing professionals) are almost surely seeing their incomes scale with inflation, and the main reward from a successful competitive career is that it improves the credentials you can advertise for your teaching and also increases the number of students you can attract. Sure the prize purses are nice supplements, but they're only supporting the top few professional dancers and not even close to the bulk of income for those dancers.

I'd also point out that saying what we want is one thing, but laying out an actionable plan to get there is another. What actions will need to be taken to get us from the current state to the future you'd like to see? What compromises will need to be made for the sake of Olympic hopes? Will the compromises needed to sustain the hope so fundamentally alter how Dancesport is run that it's virtually unrecognizable compared to the sport-art that's been growing and thriving pretty consistently since the 1950's?

Also, Renata, your rhetoric would sound more appropriate if there were some sort of precipitous decline going on in the Dancesport world. Is there any data indicating that this is actually the case, or that in some way the future careers of the US's top dancers will be imperiled by staying the course instead of pursuing Olympic inclusion?

You state that it's important for our community of dancers to move forward, but is pursuing Olympic inclusion the best or only way to move forward? Aren't there better uses of USAD and the WDSF's limited funds than lobbying the IOC for something that *might* happen (but still probably won't)? Like investing in ways to get group learning for children done effectively and at a low enough price point that we can increase participation in the sport? And maybe even doing something similar for adults (especially the young ones who won't shell out for private lessons)?

 

[Renata Shvarts]

Dancing Irishman, Its hard for me to see where your opinion is coming from because I don't know your involvement in the dance world. I chose to use my real name so that readers on the page know who I am and my involvement in the dance world. My opinion is formed by decades of being an amateur and professional dancer, teacher, event organizer and judge.

When you say and I quote "Prize purses may not have scaled up much, but does that matter too much financially to a professional dancer? Those that make money from teaching (probably the overwhelming majority of all competing professionals) are almost surely seeing their incomes scale with inflation" you are using you personal experience of a professional dancer? Are you positive that the prices have went significantly up per lesson and that there are enough students to go around? You definitely sure that all professional dancers who spend thousands of dollars for dresses, air fair, hotels are happy that after dancing 3 rounds to get to the final they find in an envelope a check for $200 for 6th place? Not to mention that the amount they spend on educational and political lessons. Just so that you understand, my friends pro 10 dance couple are spending about $50 grand a year. But maybe you are a professional dancer and you know this already.


When you say and I quote "Renata, your rhetoric would sound more appropriate if there were some sort of precipitous decline going on in the Dancesport world." are you assuming that there is no decline? I have had dance studios in Brooklyn, Staten Island and Manhattan. I can tell you that there is a decline. Pro-Am is getting more and more expensive and very few students can afford a lot of private lessons and extremely expensive competitions. There are a ton of dancers who are competing for pro-am students every day and lowering prices to attract them. Parents are no longer as interested in ballroom dancing for their kids as they used to twenty years ago because they don't see as much value for the future in it. Why spend so much money on ballroom dancing when hip hop is much more affordable. And achievements in figure skating or swimming is going to count much more on a college application. But maybe you are a studio owner or a coach or a parent who knows better.

When you say "Its better to invest in ways to get group learning for children done effectively and at a low enough price point that we can increase participation in the sport." you probably teach children on regular bases and you know whats involved in getting a program started, getting the funds to bring in coaches, getting public schools involved and getting them to allocate small funds to hold a 3 month program for 5th graders. But if you have never dealt with it I can tell you from first hand experience as a teacher specializing working with youth, and someone who is president of Junior Athletes Dance Association, its not easy and most often you get the door slammed in your face.

Last but not least when you say "Aren't there better uses of USAD and the WDSF's limited funds than lobbying the IOC for something that *might* happen (but still probably won't)?" I have to make an assumption that you at some point held positions inside USA dance and WDSF because it seems like you know how much they are spending for an Olympic Dream that will never happen. I will be honest with you, I don't know how much WDSF is spending if they are in fact spending something. But I can tell you that you shouldn't worry at all about USA dance spending anything on the Olympic dream. They are not. How do I know? I go through the minutes of every DSC and GC meeting the moment it is available and I hold an official position of a Director of Education. So If they were spending something on the Olympics I would know.

Dancing Irishman I don't want you to get upset with me. My post is in no way trying to offend you. Its just that you talk about things with such certainty that I have to wonder where you get all your information from. I don't know anything about you but now you know a lot about where my Olympic beliefs are coming from. So if you decide to answer me please tell me who you are and what function do you hold in our exciting dance community.

 

[Mr 4 styles]

Where were the subsidies and sponsorships for me to go to med school???? Why didnt i get a Dore' lab coat??? ....when i finished first in my med school class why wasn't i given 1000 dollars and a cool trophy... Coz its a profession!!!

the olympics is not about levering the world to make pro dancers lives better.. than is their responsibility!! heck golf blew up without the olympics it was put back in coz it DID blow up.. make dancesport must see tv and the olympics will come begging!! its as good as gymnastics or swimming to watch live for sure

Funding the olympic dream is underwriting a sliver of the dancers in USA dance... and not the moneymaking sliver for the organization either

The majority of full time professional dancers are just that career teachers ,pro competitors and pro am dancers. I haven't met a starving full time dance teacher... Sure they don't make Tiger Woods money( but they do as well as personal trainers, massage therapists and anyone else who provides a one on one experience ...that can't be billed to insurance) but its up to the community to make that happen not 25 to 70 dollars at a time from usa dance memberships fees either

that should be used to underwrite nqes so they don't lose money to exist, move nationals around to increase access to the nation etc


renata... every comp seems to report record entries every year?? how is that possible if there is any type of decline ??

 

[stash]

And why would you continue to push something as an elected official when many people are sick of hearing about this ridicuolous dream instead of making attainable goals to make the usadance experience better. It's a good log term goal maybe, but that's all we hear about coming from usadance. What do you plan for short term goals to push usadance further. Or easy goals (like coming up with a marking system that the Olympic committee would actually buy as objective as possible like gymnastics and ice skating) to make the olympics a real thing.

I've yet to hear real ideas of how usadance plans to go after getting into the olympics. And why Dancesport over something like ultimate frisbee?