Mr 4 styles
Forum Master
not one or the other.... just first and second.. IMO
No DanceSport at the 2020 Olympics :(
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Mr 4 styles
Forum Master
no i dont believe that believing in the olympic dream will take away any ability that you ( and the rest of the GC for the matter) need to have to grow usa dance
just do it and tell me what you need from me to make it happen....
just do it and tell me what you need from me to make it happen....
Mengu
Forum Master
I do not have loads of credentials to speak on the topic, I'm just a senior dancer, who has competed few times a year for the past 15 years, and I get to occasionally chat with fellow dancers, and some judges and organizers.
WDSF is going in a direction with dance style and judging, that is trying to be Olympic friendly, and this creates a division for those wanting a more traditional style and expectation of judging. The dance style and athleticism is being taken to levels past what is (to me) natural and healthy for long term dancers. Ballroom dancing is a sport where the dancing becomes more beautiful with years of experience and maturity. Ballroom has seen many world champions in their 40's including those reigning (or recently retired). I prefer to continue to see young dancers develop into champions and dance into their 40's, rather than watch their bodies fall apart in their 20's for an Olympic dream.
As best I understand it, the Olympic dream is a sizable part of what created the dichotomy between the organizations WDSF vs WDC, USADance vs NDCA. For me, the biggest hurt to USADance has come from this separation. Now we can't even have the same judges judging competitions for both organizations. And the two organizations can't stop throwing dirt at each other (even candidates in their candidacy statements are doing it, instead of trying to heal that relationship, but I guess that ship has long sailed). Organizers who would have been able to use local judges, now have to pay for a lot of travel expenses. One of the lures of competing, is being judged by my favorite dance legends and dancers. Well, most of those (in my case) are only allowed to judge NDCA events now, and so that's where I'm leaning toward competing.
Even as a spectator, a few years back when I was at nationals watching youth championship, I had to avert my eyes from one of the couples because this young girl's posture hurt me just looking at them. They got 3rd place. I don't want to see that. I don't want the Olympic dream for ballroom dancing.
And Olympics was originally not about cheering for your country (though politics worked its way into it early on). It's roots are philosophically the opposite of that. It was an opportunity for athletes to travel freely and compete against each other regardless of what city-state they came from. We already had that in ballroom with Blackpool... until politics struck, ironically because of Olympics.
WDSF is going in a direction with dance style and judging, that is trying to be Olympic friendly, and this creates a division for those wanting a more traditional style and expectation of judging. The dance style and athleticism is being taken to levels past what is (to me) natural and healthy for long term dancers. Ballroom dancing is a sport where the dancing becomes more beautiful with years of experience and maturity. Ballroom has seen many world champions in their 40's including those reigning (or recently retired). I prefer to continue to see young dancers develop into champions and dance into their 40's, rather than watch their bodies fall apart in their 20's for an Olympic dream.
As best I understand it, the Olympic dream is a sizable part of what created the dichotomy between the organizations WDSF vs WDC, USADance vs NDCA. For me, the biggest hurt to USADance has come from this separation. Now we can't even have the same judges judging competitions for both organizations. And the two organizations can't stop throwing dirt at each other (even candidates in their candidacy statements are doing it, instead of trying to heal that relationship, but I guess that ship has long sailed). Organizers who would have been able to use local judges, now have to pay for a lot of travel expenses. One of the lures of competing, is being judged by my favorite dance legends and dancers. Well, most of those (in my case) are only allowed to judge NDCA events now, and so that's where I'm leaning toward competing.
Even as a spectator, a few years back when I was at nationals watching youth championship, I had to avert my eyes from one of the couples because this young girl's posture hurt me just looking at them. They got 3rd place. I don't want to see that. I don't want the Olympic dream for ballroom dancing.
And Olympics was originally not about cheering for your country (though politics worked its way into it early on). It's roots are philosophically the opposite of that. It was an opportunity for athletes to travel freely and compete against each other regardless of what city-state they came from. We already had that in ballroom with Blackpool... until politics struck, ironically because of Olympics.
Renata Shvarts
Member
You are 100% correct that Olympics played some role in the falling out that happened between WDC and WDSF and in the case of United States between NDCA and USA Dance. BUT not for the reason you think.
People ask me why do I always come out on public forums and spend an enormous amount of the time i don't have to debate dance issues. And I say that I am not debating, I am educating. If I have a strong opinion on something it is because I know the truth. I didn't hear it from someone or use the popular opinion, i do extensive research, go through emails, paper work, minutes to meetings, rules and regulations and then i form my own opinion. So it really rubs me the wrong way when professionals often my friends are allowing themselves to be brainwashed and then spread this information to the students who obviously have no reason not to believe it. That is why every time there is a topic that comes up about relationship between the dance associations I will set the record straight as I will do now.
When Olympic Committee recognized Ballroom Dancing as a sport, they recognized only WDSF as the official world body. WDC was less then happy with it because in the eyes of IOC WDC is a nobody. WDC realized very fast that it is going to miss out on all the money and glory Olympic recognition will bring.
NDCA was smarter because over the course of the relationship with USA Dance, NDCA was always in control of the situation and never gave USA Dance an opportunity to stand completely on its two feet. And because of this dependency NDCA had the upper hand. NDCA immediately ceased this opportunity and started running the first Grand Slams at Embassy in August. Just in case you don't know Grand Slams were created to work out a system that will eventually be approved by IOC for Olympics and Embassy is organized by the president of NDCA. NDCA went further and asked for recognition by WDSF because being a member body of WDSF ensured that they will be in charge if and when IOC puts DanceSport in Olympics. Ken Richards was very kind and held an open conference on the phone a few weeks back. A lot of people joined in to listen to the details with proof of documents on how the fall out happened. When the notes from the meeting will be released I will post it on this forum. It is an eye opener. After listening to it you will never ask again why can't the organizations heal the relationship. You will have visual, physical proof of how USA dance tried even last year to heal it and how NDCA told them that they want USA Dance to die as a dancesport organization.
Thats why when people say Olympics caused the fall out thy are correct and incorrect at the same time. The GREED caused the fall out. Who is going to be in charge when the golden goose hatches its golden Olympic egg.
And to touch briefly on the conversation of styles and how they are changing to become more athletic now. Styles are always changing and will always continue to change. And older generation of dancers continue to complain about it. Its been happening since the beginning of Ballroom Dancing. Look at the way people danced in the 50's and in the 60's and in the 70's and the 80's and the 90's. Each decade the dancing became faster, sharper, with more difficult athletic moves. I remember how in the 90's the Italians came out in Blackpool and blew everyone out of the water with their style in standard. It was a war between English and Italian styles. I remember how latin coaches were complaining in the 90's and 2000's that dancer do side by sides and no longer dance together. Styles evolve all the time. Each generation of dancers and coaches shape it. It's just that if before if was English style against Italian now it is WDSF style against WDC style.
Bailamosdance
Forum Master
When will the conference call be made public? I dispute your assertion that the 'evidence' that was given supports how 'the NDCA wants USA Dance to die as an organization'. I was on this call and heard one side of a story that as was admitted by the appointed (not elected) current president of USA Dance (who also holds a position in the WDSF) that wrong calls were made for years; many times the dancers were subjugated to the needs of the organizations - such as USA Dance sanctioning and banning dancers under the auspices of the WDSF.
I support your candidacy Renata because you are the only candidate for your office to actively talk about issues, have solutions, and have the depth of knowledge to back them up. However, supporting the "Olympic dream" makes Seniors cringe since they have been asked to support an organization that is not active in making THEIR dream a reality. Seniors are asked all the time to 'contribute' to an organization that has in its charter the mission to make it into the Olympics.
I say if the call is not made public then any discussion about it is pure politics; let people decide if the 'presentation' hold water - and allow the people attacked and discussed to respond.
I support your candidacy Renata because you are the only candidate for your office to actively talk about issues, have solutions, and have the depth of knowledge to back them up. However, supporting the "Olympic dream" makes Seniors cringe since they have been asked to support an organization that is not active in making THEIR dream a reality. Seniors are asked all the time to 'contribute' to an organization that has in its charter the mission to make it into the Olympics.
I say if the call is not made public then any discussion about it is pure politics; let people decide if the 'presentation' hold water - and allow the people attacked and discussed to respond.
Renata Shvarts
Member
I will push for the call to be made public because I think it was taped.
The reason this call was one sided is because only one side took the time out to set the record straight. I will love to hear NDCA have the same open call and tell us their side of the story. If you or someone else can make that happen I will be most appreciative.
We did have Dancesport on TV here back in the late 90s. It aired on NBC I think. They changed the format so that some of the dances were heated and some were in solo format. I remember seeing Slavik & Joanna win the World Amateur Latin Championship. It didn't last long though.
Mr 4 styles
Forum Master
Walk before you run future USA Dance!
Rebuild amateur dancing in the US before you worry about worlds or the WDSF or the olympics.. USA Dance should probably be a stand alone organization.. not in the WDSF or WDC , so yes ..olympic dream on temporary hold.
You know that ricardo and yulia will represent the US in Latin no matter the letter name of the organization ballroom Dream Team, so lets stop kidding ourselves.. The NDCA ( and USA dance if they were part of it) would work together to fill the spots.
THE IDSF/WDC feud landed on our shores and USA Dance ,due to the Olympic Dream , got in bed with the wrong people.
Until their is American style in the WDSF worlds I could care less about them, even tho i also do Latin
I can afford to dance anywhere in the world... but the vast majority of USA dance members can't...They deserve high quality, semi locally available competitive environments to dance in.... IF this isn't first on the list...then USA dance should go back to being a strictly social dance organization and service them better, coz they are getting short sheeted as it is ( remember I'm both!!)
And the olympic dream is sucking intellectual energy away from the root needs of USA Dance thats the tie in!!
Rebuild amateur dancing in the US before you worry about worlds or the WDSF or the olympics.. USA Dance should probably be a stand alone organization.. not in the WDSF or WDC , so yes ..olympic dream on temporary hold.
You know that ricardo and yulia will represent the US in Latin no matter the letter name of the organization ballroom Dream Team, so lets stop kidding ourselves.. The NDCA ( and USA dance if they were part of it) would work together to fill the spots.
THE IDSF/WDC feud landed on our shores and USA Dance ,due to the Olympic Dream , got in bed with the wrong people.
Until their is American style in the WDSF worlds I could care less about them, even tho i also do Latin
I can afford to dance anywhere in the world... but the vast majority of USA dance members can't...They deserve high quality, semi locally available competitive environments to dance in.... IF this isn't first on the list...then USA dance should go back to being a strictly social dance organization and service them better, coz they are getting short sheeted as it is ( remember I'm both!!)
And the olympic dream is sucking intellectual energy away from the root needs of USA Dance thats the tie in!!
Mr 4 styles
Forum Master
I'm with mengu on the negative effect a points scoring system could have on the artistry of ballroom dance. That said our Olympic ladies managed to increase the artistry of their floor exercise while still putting in the difficulty. Just leave the ordinal scoring for us seniors lol
danceronice
Forum Master
People have the weird notion figure skaters get rich. One tenth of once percent of them, if they are VERY lucky, recoup their losses on training. A fraction of THEM can be said to be really rich. I am not exaggerating--a $30,000 purse, which will be taxed, which will then split between partners if you're a pair or dance team, covers...a few months of elite-level training and competition. And people winning five figures? A couple dozen in the WORLD. Tops. That's assuming someone's not a powerhouse who dominates every event and cuts out opportunities for others. Sponsorships are hard to come by outside niche skating products, especially now. The only people who've really gotten meaningfully rich in the US are when a US lady wins the Olympic gold, or she's Michelle Kwan. (Or she got whacked on the knee.) Just getting to the Olympics doesn't meaningfully affect earning potential, and it almost NEVER meaningfully makes up for the expense. Most kids wash out without ever making it out of regionals.
There aren't that many US Olympics medalists in Judo, but I have been in a room with one. I'm pretty sure this person would have been super happy to receive $30k pre-tax -- which I agree with you is a pittance.
Incidentally, when I was in that room, I was not only witness but (regretfully) party to some regional tendrils of the petty politics surrounding the 3 governing bodies of Judo in the US. A tiny handful of the US population even plays Judo, but sure, it has 3 governing bodies. One of them exists more or less specifically for Olympic purposes. For people who just want to learn and play Judo, I don't see how the petty politics serve them. I am also long, long past caring which "truth" can be rightfully claimed by which group.
So, anyway, particularly in cases where there is friction between multiple entities vying for control of a sport, I doubt very much that the Olympics provides some sort of magic pixie dust that can be sprinkled on the situation to make it better.
Joe
Forum Master
However, how many people can you name who have won an Olympic medal in Judo, without having to resort to teh intarwebs?
s2k
Well-Known Member
Egor Shalvarov has posted his thoughts on this topic on Dance Comp Review.
http://dancecompreview.com/why-having-dance-sport-at-the-olympics-is-not-a-good-idea/
"But my dream (of Dancing in the Olympics) started fading away when I got older, and completely vanished when the world of dance sport was broken into two completely separate governing bodies.Some speculate that the separation was initiated by the hunger for power and money, since one federation was, apparently, getting more publicity than the other. But, I’ll just stick to believing in the 'cover' version, which is: 'Time had come where dancers have to choose between 'Dance' and 'Sport'."
http://dancecompreview.com/why-having-dance-sport-at-the-olympics-is-not-a-good-idea/
"But my dream (of Dancing in the Olympics) started fading away when I got older, and completely vanished when the world of dance sport was broken into two completely separate governing bodies.Some speculate that the separation was initiated by the hunger for power and money, since one federation was, apparently, getting more publicity than the other. But, I’ll just stick to believing in the 'cover' version, which is: 'Time had come where dancers have to choose between 'Dance' and 'Sport'."
JudeMorrigan
Forum Master
Well, one thing seems very clear to me. Whether or not the Olympic dream is actually a good thing or not, the pro-Olympics faction needs to spend more time on outreach to the membership-base explaining why the pursuit is to the benefit of the organization. (I don't mean here specifically, I mean in general.) Because there definitely seems to be a faction that does not consider it to be a self-evident truth that it is.