Not sure what to do next

[Alora]

Hello everyone

I’m asking for some advice about Argentine Tango, if possible please.

I’m based in the UK. I’ve been studying tango for two years, I have gone to several milongas and some workshops, I’ve going to classes twice a week and have started having private lessons about 2 months ago-once a week.

I’m not young (69) although I’m fairly presentable!

I realised very early on that the completion would be stiff for dances at my age so I’ve listened to lots of tango music, read a few books and tried to absorb as much as I can of the tango culture, along twice weekly lessons and privates.

So far I’ve very little success with getting dances at milongas, despite using the ‘Murano’ (as advised by my tango teacher) technique, usually it’s ignored to I get a ‘mouthed’ no thank you. My teacher sympathises and says that I should keep studying.

I appreciate that tango can take years to master but I appear to be caught in the ‘not good enough to dance with but can’t get any better’ loop.

Maybe I’m doing everything I can to become a good enough partner tango and it just takes investment lessons or is anything else I can do?

I’ve booked two tango dancing holidays and I’m hoping to improve enough to have a few dances under my belt.

 

[TTanguero]

Welcome to the forum!

Where in the UK? And what's the typical age-range of the milongas you go to?

 

[Alora]

Hi Tanguero

Thank you for your quick reply.

I’m in Essex it varies, depending on location, The age tangles from 30’s up to 70’s. I’m sure my age goes against me if I’m being realistic but also the other follows are all very talented dancers…the completion is very stiff. Stunning ladies who are amazing dancers too,

I’ve been reading other posts and perhaps I’m still in ‘beginner’s hell’ and just have to work at.

Initially I didn’t ‘get’ tango (being a ballroom dancer) and I had to work at it to understand it.

I have been to milongas where the average age was 50 to 80’s, I did dance with everyone male and female leaders and I thoroughly enjoyed it.

Perhaps I’ve answered my own question….

 

[Alora]

One more question, if I may?

Am I restricted to going to milongas/practicas for my own age group? If so, am I wasting my time and money going to classes and privates lessons?

What I am trying to ask you is, if over the next few years (God willing) I continue to study, practice and became reasonably good would I still be restricted to ‘mature’ milongas no matter how good a dancer i hope to be?

Do the younger leaders consider older follows if they are good dancers?

The reason why I ask this is there is only one milonga in my area for mature dancers the other milongas which my teacher and members of our class go to) are for age range 20 to 70. I can’t join them sadly as I don’t get to dance and I feel very uncomfortable,

 

[Brummbaer]

So far I’ve very little success with getting dances at milongas, despite using the ‘Murano’

Cabeceo is the leader's invite (a nod of the head - from cabeza=head, but sometimes a 'look'). The response is mirada (from mirar=to look). There's a whole thread on this código and its problems and alleged benefits. Argentinian friends and acquaintances acknowledge that it's not always utilised in parts of the UK for multiple reasons (search the threads). But you do need to observe how invites are working and use that if somewhere new. Other workarounds are frequently employed, although there are milongas, usually less social, where it's de rigueur. There are numerous explanations and videos on this (look for 'cabeceo' on YT).

Fundamentally you need social acquaintances! Or you chat to people - usually at the 'water cooler' or food. You can even drop in how depressing it is not to be invited! It's been known for the sisterhood to go to chat with some sister with a partner for the prospect of a tanda. You need to use alternative ploys to get a tanda! (I know some will object, but you need results!). If you feel bold (very bold) just go and ask someone verbally. I know some who do - they came to dance, not to iron seats! At worst they'll say 'no'. I've been asked by a beginner follower whether I'd do some tandas with her if she went to a molonga. What's the host, or your teacher, doing? If you read some threads here you'll find that sometimes pre-arrangements are made for a particular tanda - signalled by a cabeceo/mirada.

But, it is hard work fraught with difficulties and lack of confidence!

Am I restricted to going to milongas/practicas for my own age group?

Certainly not! But they can divide in age (usually solos up to ~30, when they become attached with other responsibilities), then older (~50+, either [new] 'solos' or couples). There are, of course other divisions! If you're in a metropolis, like London, you're likely to find younger solos. But there are older people. I recollect a well-dressed older couple turning up at 11pm for a milonga in London. It meant we weren't the oldest there. That milonga usually finished ~3am.

We've become used to being the oldest (over 70) on the dancefloor, but it doesn't stop you getting tandas. Sometimes you know you'll not get a tanda because there's a younger clique. Unfortunately, for women, age is a problem with many men who prefer the PYT. But we're not all like that!

The key is knowing people! It's usually better to start at a milonga run by/for your group since you'll already know people.

Someone once said:

• Beginner dancer: knows nothing.
• Intermediate Dancer: knows everything. Too good to dance with beginners.
• Hotshot Dancer: too good to dance wvith anyone.
• Advanced Dancer: Dances everything, specially with beginners.

There are many intermediates and hotshots at some milongas who don't have the skills to dance with beginners! They have to be selective!

Miguel Zotto (great dancer! Danced with Milena Plebs IIRC) said
However an excellent dancer you are as a man, even if you are able to dance with every woman, when you dance with a woman who can’t follow you have more responsibility. You must dance perfectly, which means you can’t relax, you can’t think about your posture, and you can’t rattle off a fine step: what is the use of being able to do everything if the woman can’t follow you?

am I wasting my time and money going to classes and privates lessons?

I’ve booked two tango dancing holidays and I’m hoping to improve enough to have a few dances under my belt.

No, you're not wasting time and money. I do wonder about dance holidays. Yes, they can be great (we did some as beginners), but that led us to more 'intensive' workshop weeks as holidays. Have you looked at weekends with milongas and workshops? Improving your technique and vocabulary is well worthwhile and confidence building.

---

Do you go to a practica? (Not just an informal milonga). Do you have someone with whom you can practice? Do you have someone who would go with you as a dance partner to a workshop/weekend? (I've just been auctioned off as a lead at a forthcoming workshop as my wife isn't able to attend. Recently went to another workshop with a shortage of followers - but it was role-balanced)

 

[Alora]

Hello

Thank you so much you’ve given me some great ideas and inspiration.

My teacher just teaches her classes but goes to milongas/socials as a dancer, if you understand.

I’ll search out some practicas that I know of and hopefully there’ll be somebody to dance or practice with. I do think I need to strike out on my own and not just rely on my teacher.

I naively thought classes would be enough because my confidence took a ‘nose dive’ at the last milonga where I sat for 4 hours without one dance and I can’t face another disaster.

I will try again.
Thank you so much for your help.

 

[TTanguero]

I have been to milongas where the average age was 50 to 80’s, I did dance with everyone male and female leaders and I thoroughly enjoyed it.

Perhaps I’ve answered my own question….

Largely so, I think. My favourite milongas and festivals span all age ranges, including a few literal teenagers, but the majority of dancers are 50+. You'd have no problem dancing in that environment, whereas if the majority are 20s to 30s you're unlikely to have much luck.

The other issue is you need to be seen to be dancing in order to get dances, so it's best to either go with a follower friend or two, or do the pre-milonga class, where it's usual to rotate and therefore lots of followers get to dance with you.

am I wasting my time and money going to classes and privates lessons?

Privates are never a waste of money. I was dancing very widely at two years in, but I was very obsessional with it, including between two and four privates per month. That will develop your dance faster than anything else.

 

[Brummbaer]

I’ll search out some practicas that I know of and hopefully there’ll be somebody to dance or practice with. I do think I need to strike out on my own and not just rely on my teacher.

It depends on the práctica, but some are just an informal milonga (but you could ask for a tanda to practice some move...). If it really is a práctica then you could ask for some 'help' (even if you don't need it!).

I sat for 4 hours without one dance and I can’t face another disaster.

Seen that at some of the more 'selective' London milongas (I'm a 'northerner'). But that had tables (see threads here again). Lady sat for hours (but she was scrolling her phone and not really looking. Possibly given up!). We ran into her at another milonga the next day and she got loads of tandas. It happens. A regrettable feature of AT and some interpretation of 'social'. You also need to consider where you sit. I believe near the TDJ and visible in the light (if there is any) is considered good, but others may have different views.

 

[Alora]

Thank you!

Forgive my ignorance but whatvisvTDJ please?

 

[Brummbaer]

Thank you!

Forgive my ignorance but whatvisvTDJ please?

TDJ=Tango Disc Jockey (or Jane, if female in other parts of Europe).

The sound desk!

 

[opendoor]

...although I’m fairly presentable!

Hi Alora, I have NO doubt about that!

..So far I’ve very little success with getting dances at milongas, despite using the ‘Murano’ (as advised by my tango teacher) technique..

I've been dancing tango since 2000, but I've never heard that word "Murano" in connection with tango. Murano is a beautiful island near Venice. I've visited the glassblowing workshops as I vacationed there. I have fond memories of the island. In the evenings, I would sit under the lighthouse Faro and practice Libertango on my bandoneón. People would come and applaud, even though I played terribly, and some spontaneously tryed to dance tango.

..I appear to be caught in the ‘not good enough to dance with but can’t get any better’ loop..

This self-doubt is completely natural. My tip: you have to get out of the passive role. Of course, twentysomethings are the measure of all things in almost every community. But there's also tango beyond that. Build a dependent circle of peers by offering private tango parties and hand-picking the participants. Offer yourself as a host or a DJ to the organizers. Take on the few male newcomers and give them private lessons. You're still on the passive side by buying, visiting, and booking. Switch sides, make yourself special, and expensive.

 

[Alora]

Thank you Open Door and everyone else.

This has helped me so much and lots of ideas to put into action.

At the very least you’ve all given me a way forward.

X

 

[JournalInTime]

Realize that if you learn tango academically – the typical way, though not the only way – group classes are less for "learning to dance" than for "making contacts of roughly your level and experience to practice and dance with later on." To learn to dance, you eventually want to devote whatever time, money, and energy you have to private lessons.

Start dancing at prácticas – not milongas. That's another way to make contacts. Because people are there to practice and fix their problems, there's less judgment. Once you've met people there, you can transition through "practilongas" to milongas. Take heart in knowing that a certain kind of dancer (I'm one) respects people who practice, and invites them more often at the milonga. Generally, this kind of dancer is better because they practice, too.

Find a practice partner as soon as possible. This person may or may not turn into a general dance partner, but will give you a sounding board that will – along with private lessons and prácticas – accelerate your progress dramatically. Yes, this is easier said than done . . . but it helps to be openminded. I've had a few practice partners who were nothing like me in culture, outlook, dance experience, etc., but who still helped me along quite a bit.

Don't let age be a factor. I will soon be 58 years old. My favorite dance partners are all 10-25 years older than me. It's only the hotshot machos who insist on dancing with young women. More emotionally mature and intelligent men don't have such a hang-up.

Don't be quickly discouraged. My coach says that at her age and the age of my girlfriend (let's call it "late middle age"), there's no substitute for "paying your dues." Young women might be invited on the grounds of looks and (un)dress, but all the others have to be regulars who've filled the same chair at the same place week in and week out, sometimes for months. This is irrespective of level: My coach is a slim, fit dance professional with 30+ years of tango experience, and typically one of the best dancers at any event, but where she's a stranger . . . she has to establish herself the same way as anyone else.

Of course, I'm saying all of this as a leader who doesn't sit much, so take it with a grain of salt. That said, I don't sit much because where I live and dance, the ratio of followers to leaders ranges from 3:2 on a "balanced" evening to as bad as 4:1. You can use numbers to your advantage if you can find a place where there are more leaders than followers.

 

[Alora]

Thank you so much Journallntime.

I certainly do practice - most days - the exercises that my teacher gives me - pivots, Ochos, decorations balancing on one leg. walking, To be fair to my teacher she is very passionate and takes our learning seriously by supplying leaders for follows to practice with at her 2 hour class.

However, she cannot control who asks her pupils to dance at Milongas and the ratio of follows to leaders here in Essex is 5/6 follows to 1 lead.

I’m going to look for practicas in my area, if necessary I’ll, travel and it’s at the practicas I’ll search for a practice partner…such great idea. I can also ask the teachers at the practicas if they know anyone.

This has been so he,pful.

X

 

[JournalInTime]

Thank you so much Journallntime.

You're most welcome. Hopefully something I wrote or will write shall prove useful to you!

I certainly do practice - most days - the exercises that my teacher gives me

Drills or exercises are good. Remember two things, though:

1. "If you can't do it alone first, you can't do it with a partner" is true, but "Just because it works when you're alone doesn't mean it'll work with a partner" is equally true. Try not to internalize how you do things to the point where having someone in front of you is a hindrance. Eventually, aim to practice with a partner as often as or more often than without.

2. Technique-wise, working alone is great. Socially, being seen to work is more important. Nobody knows that you've done 100 repetitions of something in front of a mirror at home, and so are better at that thing that someone who they can see doing it on the dancefloor right now.

decorations balancing on one leg

Practicing stability on one leg is essential at all levels, but practicing decorations is unnecessary at the beginning. Decorations are entirely optional in Argentine tango, and until you've mastered the steps you're decorating, decorations interfere with your progress with those steps. Then, until you've mastered the decorations and the steps you're decorating, there will not be much visual appeal, which can be bad socially.

Speaking as a leader, I've never invited a follower even once on the strength of her decorations, but I've invited plenty who've left out decorations and showed solidity with two feet on the floor. You probably don't want to dance with the sort of leader who puts frou-frou on one leg ahead of the floor under two.

supplying leaders for follows to practice with at her 2 hour class.

See if you can leverage this into practice sessions with those leaders. I was a student at a studio where I soon became an accompanier (i.e., one of these supplied leaders) and eventually a very junior teaching assistant. The people I accompanied often wanted me to partner them outside of classes, and when I could, I did. Indeed, my life partner is someone I met while accompanying her when I had 2 years more experience than her!

However, she cannot control who asks her pupils to dance at Milongas and the ratio of follows to leaders here in Essex is 5/6 follows to 1 lead.

Worse than here – yikes!