Not touchy feely

It is great fun to recognize the mistake early and correct it by doing something a little off-plan. I don't know that this is being a good dancer
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Your instructor hasn't repeated the AT mantra of "There are no mistakes in tango?"
For many of us the improvisational nature of the dance (as taught and danced by many) is one of the most attractive characteristics.
The only thing better, (to this way of thinking) is to have no plan; rather being immersed in the moment, always reacting to the music, your partner, and the other couples on the floor.
 
RiseNFall: Thanks for your story. It's good to hear you were able to hide your discomfort and ultimately succeed.

MintyMe: Thanks for your post, it's good to know there's kindred spirits out there.

LotV: I have decided I do need to work on my hug thing. I'll write more on that in the next post. Private lessons are a good thought and we'll consider that. No firm plans yet but we are planning on more lessons.

Zoop*: Great suggestions, thanks. I like your incremental approach thinking, too.

SP: No, haven't heard that yet! I'm even more impressed by good dancers doing it in real time.
 
I went to the Milonga!

Short story is I had a great time. I had feared it would be a big pressure to dance with a bunch of different women kind of thing (the instructor strongly encourages switching in the class and iterates this every class), but it was quite the opposite and quite laid back. Everyone here at df was right. There were a good number of couples that never switched partners. It was also nice to see all the women were asked to dance multiple times, I don't think there were any female planchadoras. I found it interesting there were a handful of men that were there for a while, didn't approach any females that I saw, never danced, and then left, despite an excess of females.

I felt like we noticeably improved in just one night. It was also fun to watch the other dancers. Our instructors are incredibly good and were obviously the best dancers there. My wife danced a song or two with our instructor. While it also showed I definitely have much to learn, I felt we were able to hang in there and we are looking forward to the next Milonga. Our class is large, but very few people from the class were there, I thought having our instructor there and his encouraging attendance in the class would have more of them come.

I want to give a big thanks to the folks here for their words of encouragement.

If you want to just read about dance, skip ahead to the next message. Now onto the touchy-feely stuff:

When we arrived, the female instructor hugged my wife. I'm surprised she even recognized her as big as our class is. I thought, "Oh great, I hope I am not next!" There were a handful of moments like that.

A couple of good comments here had me thinking about my thing about hugs. I had thought it was just I didn't particularly like them, analogous to not liking black licorice. I realized if it was just a preference kind of thing, why is it such a big deal then to me? Why did I feel compelled to do a long post on how to avoid others? Why did I feel sudden discomfort when I might be next in line for a hug? I might weigh twice as much as the female instructor, was I afraid she might beat me up? I started realizing maybe I wasn't being a dispassionate scientist on this issue.

I finally admitted to myself it might be some kind of fear reaction -- a surprise to me as I'm am successful at many things and do things that others find scary. It was also a good insight for me that my discomfort is pretty narrowly defined. Guys bump into me during basketball, I shake hands, doctors touch me, and more without a problem. It seemed to be pretty narrowly confined to hugs with adults.

I bought a book on fear, already the first chapter has been very eye opening for me. My dear spouse and I talked about all this. She offered to stick with me at practice and Milongas and that she wanted it to be fun for me. Anyway, after a bunch of reading I decided to force myself to step out of my comfort zone and to stick with switching partners at the classes for the rest of the term, and the reevaluate, and to work on myself concurrently. Wish me luck!

Anyway, I never would have guessed dance lessons would take me down this path, but I can see it could be for my ultimate good and maybe I can be a better person towards others. Thanks all for the keen insights and encouragement. My plan is to now keep things dance focused for my future posts!
 
Tango Distance said:
SP: No, haven't heard that yet! I'm even more impressed by good dancers doing it in real time.
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Good dancers really follow their partners. I mean leaders and followers.
And they are aware of the other side, so they know what they are doing.

I received comments like I know I had made mistake but you kept dancing,
or I take down others dancer but not you.

I wrote you the first trick about always be aware of your lead,
but also be aware what she might follow and how she follows.

In addition to that I try to be always in front of my follower, so it's easier to "follow" them.
If she makes a move I didn't lead, I go to the place how she interpreted my lead.
Maybe I lead something unconsciously but then I am ready to lead something else.

And sometimes it's quite difficult to estimate someone's skill until you dance with them. ;)
 
Here is an update.

I did a 2nd Milonga. It was great fun, and I was happy to see I was much improved from the one a month earlier. I had found a list here called something like “10 mistakes Tango beginners make” or something like that. I did about 8 of the 10 mistakes the first time! The 2nd time was much better.

Now onto a touchy feely update (long post alert! There is some dark humor, though!):

I'm switching partners in class and planning to do that again in the next class. Some of the ladies asked me if I liked switching, I replied that my wife wanted me to do it. Hmmm, seeing that in print I realize that wasn't the smoothest thing to say as it implies I'd rather not practice with them, I'll have to start saying something like it makes me better. Anyway, it is short, not close embrace, and directed, so I'm coping OK with switching partners in class. The politeness thing doesn't always come naturally, so I have tried to diligently smile, ask or say the lady's name, and thank her afterwards. It has been nice to see some big smiles during and afterwards, it is good to spread some joy around and good to realize there are some silver linings to my discomforts.

The 1st Milonga I decided to not switch partners. That went pretty well, so I decided to do that again at the 2nd Milonga. Then I started reading old archived posts here on the DF Tango forum. There were posts on the agony of being rejected when asked to dance... Posts on women asking men... Posts on etiquette that dances should rarely be refused and only for good reasons... Even posts lamenting that someone didn't ask any women to dance one night. I thought, OK, OK, I give. I'll plan to not ask anyone to dance, but I won't refuse if asked.

... to be continued ...
 
... continued touchy-feely update ...

I had only danced with my dear wife (dw) and it was fairly late in the evening. I think I was doing reasonable well for someone with a couple of months of lessons. Then my instructor asked me to dance. It was surreal in that I only remember snapshots about every 15 seconds or so. I guess that shows my poor brain was on overload and I have more work to do than I realized! Here is how it went. While this is actually pretty accurate, I also intend it to be funny in a dark humor sort of way. In retrospect I'm laughing at myself now.

<snapshot> Instructor suddenly appears in front of me from out of nowhere. I don't remember being asked or if she grabbed my hand or what. </snapshot>

<snapshot> Upon entering the floor, I make some needless comment about not being very good. She is my instructor, clearly she has some clue about how good or how bad I am. </snapshot>

<snapshot> Somehow we are 5 meters down the line of dance, and in an open embrace. I think I must have just been standing there motionless because she says “Just walk.” She is smiling, I am not! I start shuffling forward. </snapshot>

<snapshot> 5 meters later, she says something about the song being a vals. </snapshot>

<snapshot> Somehow we are another 5 meters down the line of dance, and I vaguely perceive forward motion doesn't seem to be working. My instructor says “Ochos!” I then realize she is doing ochos, I have no recollection if I led them or what. Somehow forward motion ensues again. </snapshot>

<snapshot> 5 meters later, I finally try to lead some stuff besides walking. It goes terribly. I can't seem to lead her to do intended steps, and she is doing things I didn't intend to lead. This is going much worse than class. </snapshot>

<snapshot> The song ends. My distress must be palpable, as the instructor apologizes to me for how she asked me to dance and offers a high five. I weakly high five back without saying anything and walk off. I think it was the 1st song of a Tanda. At the time I thought she was indicating we were done, but in retrospect maybe I'm the one that ended it by walking away at that point. It doesn't matter, it was not going well! </snapshot>

<snapshot> I make it back to dw, who is at the spot I left her. Time returns to normal speed and I'm perceiving things at 30 fps again. She introduces me to someone. I had thought they were just talking, so my dw and I danced the last couple of songs of that Tanda. It was later I found out she had danced the first song with him and I think I interrupted the Tanda! Oh well, I'll cut myself some slack on this one! </snapshot>

In retrospect, I realize I had said I would accept a dance but apparently wasn't mentally ready for it. Another thought I had was had it been another student from the class maybe I would have known better what to expect. I had only done literally a single 8CB with the instructor.

... to be continued ...
 
... continued with some psychobabble stuff: ...

I had thought 90% of the population were dancers or latent dancers and took naturally to all this stuff. After reading posts here on DF and talking to some of my engineer coworkers I realize I'm more common than I thought.

I had thought it was only fear, and there could be a fear component. I bought and started reading a book on fear. While it was interesting, it didn't quite fit. Then, somehow, I looked up stuff on introverts vs. extroverts. I didn't think I was an introvert, as I am not shy or a hermit. It turns out shyness and introversion are two different things and not necessarily coupled. What I didn't realize is an extrovert gets charged up from interacting with others, an introvert gets drained and needs recharge time. I think this is part of my time limited thing (avoid or short as possible hugs and rotate partners often in class), that's less draining that a long time thing. I match many introvert characteristics. I know, I know, the readers are all saying, “Duh!” but it was a big revelation for me. So now I'm reading a book “Quiet The Power of Introverts in a World that Can't Stop Talking.” I took a Briggs Myers test and scored 78% introvert. I “took” the test for my dw (I'll ask her to do it later, it'll be interesting to see how close we come), and her score was 100% extrovert. That definitely fits. I was amazed how accurate the descriptions of me were. I don't know yet if this enables change, as extrovert and introvert brains are physiologically different and apparently are hard-wired traits to some degree. I'll keep studying that for now. BTW my dw has been wonderful. While I don't understand this extrovert thing of wanting to dance with many people, and she doesn't understand this introvert thing of wanting to only dance with one person, she keeps saying she wants to do what makes it most fun for me. FWIW I have encouraged her to mingle, but she says she doesn't like seeing me just sitting there not dancing, but I tell her really I'm just fine...

There are some web sites that talk about dancing for introverts. They say it actually can work, in that they can have a limited and more structured number of interactions. That's an interesting thought that dance could actually be a less stressful way to interact with others, I'll have to try thinking about it from that angle.

So my near future? I'm planning to do another dance class, and I'll plan to keep rotating partners (for me that's a lot of progress). BTW the suggestion to think of the mechanics of dance was excellent – give me a good science problem to optimize any day over a human one! Given the magnitude of the failure of my first non-dw dance at a Milonga I'll have to think about how to approach that. One thought is to not dance with anyone else besides dw (I know all you extrovert dancers cringe, particularly given the general leader shortage), maybe taking an “extended smoking break” to let her mingle more (I don't smoke, but you get the idea!). One thought is to ask my instructor for the last dance of a Tanda late into a Milonga – if I have time to psyche myself up for it and it's more on my terms maybe it'll go smoother. It's also a more bite-sized 3 minute goal. It also has the benefit it would have to go much better than the time before, no way to go but up from here!

The fun of Tango itself and the huge smile on my dw's face have made the effort worthwhile!
 
I enjoyed reading your update! And I did find your snapshots humorous. I think it's great that you are able to see humor in all this, because I know it is stressful for you to immerse yourself in the tango "scene".

I am also an introvert. Quite a few of the tango people I know are. Most of us would rather dance than sit around talking. I have trouble filtering what people are saying from all the background noise at a milonga, so it's only 1 step above a noisy bar filled with drunken brawlers for my least favorite way to socialize! Unfortunately as a follower, I have to expect that I will spend time sitting at a milonga talking to other followers. And you are correct, introversion and shyness are not the same thing!

Also, keep in mind that when we complain about someone not asking anyone to dance all night, we are usually referring to dancers who are reasonably experienced (although often not as good as they THINK they are) who refuse to ask anyone deemed "inferior" (and almost everyone falls into that category in their view). Followers with a few miles under their belt are not going to criticize beginners who are not comfortable at a milonga yet.

In other words, rightly or wrongly, when followers criticize someone for not dancing, it's because we are annoyed by what we think they think it says about US. That isn't the situation you are in. No one is likely to be under the impression that you think you are too good for them.

As for what to say when asked about switching. I suggest just being up front about it. Say "It's taking me time to get used to it and feel comfortable, but it has nothing to do with the wonderful people I'm meeting and dancing with, so I appreciate your patience"

Followers really love humility. ;)

Or maybe it's just me...
 
Tango Distance said:
There are some web sites that talk about dancing for introverts. They say it actually can work, in that they can have a limited and more structured number of interactions. That's an interesting thought that dance could actually be a less stressful way to interact with others, I'll have to try thinking about it from that angle.
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This certainly holds true for me. I much prefer structured interaction - random, impromptu social gatherings with no purpose are not my idea of fun.

I am a ballroom dancer (Argentine is not my thing at all), but for what it's worth, I:
- seriously enjoy private lessons, even more so when there is no one else in the studio
- genuinely like solo practice, and love the once or so a week where I go in early and have the place to myself
- heavily prefer standard as a dance, because of the structure inherent in the form (and the fact that the hold lets me get in my own little world more easily than other forms, like latin or salsa)
- make a point to say hi or wave at people when I'm at the studio, but have spread the word that when I am there, I am there to work on my dancing, so no one is offended (or at least not too badly) when I don't have long conversations
- have learned to like competitions over time, but am generally the one off by myself on the side or in the hallway, staying focussed and being antisocial
- do not particularly enjoy social dancing, and rarely go just for the fun of it (think once a year or so). I am much more comfortable having a role at the social dance - running music, being the door police, etc. - than just being there for fun. That way, I work for a bit, dance for a bit and have an easy way and reason to structure the evening
- decide when I have enough social energy to devote to a social event, and make sure to plan in quiet, alone "recovery time" afterward

Hopefully some of these strategies will help you out. I'm sure that I employ more, but these are the ones that immediately come to mind.

The dance world is full of all kinds... trust me, the introverts are out there. Some of us may have just developed stronger coping skills having been around dance longer and having discovered our strong introversion early.
 
This has been a long and interesting thread. Like Tango Distance I'm not a touchy feely guy and even after about 15 years of dancing Latin and Ballroom and two full years learning AT - I'm still only comfortable dancing with Lily. ( and she's still back leading me!)

I find dancing with short and petite followers awkward and difficult. I'm not a big person, 5 10" and 190 lbs, but I play hockey three mornings a week so my lead is strong and physical. At the group lessons and Practicas I rotate through all the ladies, and Lily pushes me to go over and dance with various followers, but honestly, at the Milongas I hide like a cowardly lion from "butterflies" - petite followers.
 
Thank you for the update, OP, and all who have shared your experience. It's good to continue stretching and working through your limits and insecurities.

I'm an introvert myself. I only have so much energy for social activities. I would rather teach a group of 200 people how to waltz (and have) than have a one-on-one conversation with a stranger or *gasp* mingle at a party. At the dances, I stake out a spot (usually the same one each week) and wait for people to come to me to chat or ask me to dance. They do, then wander off and I hang out by myself until the next one comes by. It's very hard for me to walk up to people and chat or even ask them to dance. And this is with 20 years of dancing, 14 of those teaching.
 
Thanks for the good words. I had assumed I was the only introvert in my studio, but I'm now guessing there are others. I have been assuming dancing is a dominantly extrovert kind of thing, but maybe not. I'm doing lots of reading (typical introvert kind of thing!). I'm not too bad on conversing, the touch thing is my big deal. One of the test questions I read was do you go to the center of the room or to a corner? At the Milonga I head right for the least busy corner, that fits.

I exchanged email with my instructor. Of course she said things like you were great, thanks, it was fun, etc -- I'm not sure I believe that (unless she has a really really broad definition of fun and cut me tons of beginner's slack on great and thanks for trying!) but I appreciated the encouragement. The little bit of advice she slipped in was to dance to the beat and confidence. I'm pretty sure I was short on both! That would help explain having trouble leading and her following -- I probably couldn't concentrate on two things at once (music and steps).

Here's yet another way I figured out to look at things: A song's worth of private lessons would be around $5. I could "make back" the Milonga fee pretty quick by dancing with the instructor (clearly the best female there). Hmmm, not much of an inducement but I can use every bit of encouragement I can get!

Re: wine at the Milongas. No, haven't tried that, and not sure it is a good idea to start, but I could see people having a desire to relax a bit.

Thanks all again. I never would have predicted this path. If nothing else it is good to understand oneself better and beyond dance these understandings will help my relationship with my dw (it's pretty good, but this should make it better).
 
Please elucidate, is it that because you are further away or it is more consistent or ?
FancyFeet said:
... - heavily prefer standard as a dance, because of the structure inherent in the form (and the fact that the hold lets me get in my own little world more easily than other forms, like latin or salsa) ...
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