Not touchy feely

TD I have a question for you. But before I ask it, I’ll make a couple observations: I love your description of your relationship with DW. It sounds so healthy, funny and real. You’re a lucky man! Secondly, I love this thread (although I confess I haven’t read all 346 posts).

Now to the question, or perhaps it’s more of an observation. Don’t you LOVE CE? I don’t believe 3 years of protestations that you have a problem with it. I think secretly you love it. Why on earth would you be dancing AT if not?
 
I am a lucky man, my beautiful dear wife (DW) is very patient with me.

I'm glad you like the thread. It is getting long, but I'd suggest at least reading the first few pages to get a feel for how far the TD has come.

There are many things I like about AT:
  • Great thing to do with DW
  • Hanging out with great people
  • Making female friends (instead of hanging out with "the guys" at parties I now hang out with ladies, too, at Tango events)
  • Learning new things
  • "Flying" the follower (analogous to flying quadcopters)
Regarding "Don’t you LOVE CE? I don’t believe 3 years of protestations that you have a problem with it. I think secretly you love it. Why on earth would you be dancing AT if not?":

I think reading all 348 messages would answer your question. :)

To be clear, I absolutely 100% love close embrace (CE) with my dear wife. It is common for folks with hug or touch issues to be OK with romantic partners but not anyone else.

Let's put CE aside for a moment. It was months before I was willing to dance with ladies who weren't DW!

As a little boy I didn't like hugs with my mom even. She often complained "Why won't you hug me?" So CE strike 1 for the TD is a lifetime of issues with hugs.

CE strike 2 is there is a lot of open embrace (OE) dancing in my area.

CE strike 3 is there are few lessons in CE in my area, and most of those are when we get visiting instructors.

Here is a typical Milonga for TD: I'll do 5 to 8 tandas with DW. I'll do 0 to 10 tandas with other ladies. Yes, even now, some nights I dance only with DW. If men are in short supply, I do try to do more tandas. So my most typical night now is to do around 5 tandas with DW, and dance every 2nd or 3rd tanda with someone else for the nonDW tandas. I very rarely do a 2nd tanda with a nonDW lady during a milonga. This is quite a contrast with my DW, who thinks an undanced tanda is a disaster. BTW I could easily dance every or almost every tanda if I chose to do so (would have to repeat partners).

DW gets lots of CE, but even with her I'll switch back and forth between CE and OE. Some ladies only get OE, as they have expressed that preference or look to be new. The rest get a mix of CE and OE. No one gets pure CE.

When we leave a milonga, I try to slip out and avoid the departure hug gauntlet, but I have improved to the point I do the hug gauntlet rather than refuse to someone's face to hug like I used to.

So that doesn't sound like someone who openly or secretly loves CE, does it?

My hug goal was to not let hugs control my mind. I have grown from that point to trying to consider the other person, and just go ahead and do the hug if they would like it.

I'm not sure I get the hug and love of CE thing like you and others here do. At this point (and this is huge progress for me), it is another dance "step" for me, and I realize some of the ladies seem to really like CE and hugs. Maybe someday I'll get it.

So why do Tango, then? Number one, by far, is my DW really loves it and it is a great date with her. Secondly, you don't need to be a diehard CEer to survive in our little community. Believe it or not, I was invited to go to an encuentro, but felt overwhelmed by the thought of 3 straight days of CE and didn't sign up. My DW occasionally brings up going to Buenos Aires to tango. Again, I feel weary just thinking of that much CE, so I tell DW she can go without me. Third, I do other dances, too. Swing is becoming very fun. Fourth, there is a lot of tango in my little area. Salsa is big, too, but other dances don't happen as often. If you like to dance and don't want to grind, Tango is a good choice in our area.

So don't get me wrong, I do enjoy Tango (and Blues, Contra, and Swing dancing). I have a great life. The path to hugdom is one of many steps for me and I'm still on that journey.

Oh yeah, this points out a big reason for this thread, well, let's list multiple reasons:
  • A place for the TD to discuss his proximity issues with experienced tango people
  • Hopefully the words in this thread can be helpful to others with proximity challenges
  • To help educate those who think it is obvious OE should be banned and the CE embrace should never be broken that there are people out there who think differently
  • To help show others it is a process. Many people think doing CE once is a Disney moment and all is good. Nope, it is a journey with steps forward, and sometimes back.
WhiskeyPapa said:
TD I have a question for you. But before I ask it, I’ll make a couple observations: I love your description of your relationship with DW. It sounds so healthy, funny and real. You’re a lucky man! Secondly, I love this thread (although I confess I haven’t read all 346 posts).

Now to the question, or perhaps it’s more of an observation. Don’t you LOVE CE? I don’t believe 3 years of protestations that you have a problem with it. I think secretly you love it. Why on earth would you be dancing AT if not?
Click to expand...
 
Tango Distance said:
I'm used to instructors ending the lesson right at the 49 minute and 59.9 second mark, and encouraging the students to go home. I can't blame them, as much fun as Tango is they often do have day jobs, kids waiting for them, home chores, etc. In contrast, this instructor seemed happy to talk Tango after the lesson.
Click to expand...
Teachers tell over and over that a milonga is a social event which is not only about dancing, and that dancing is about feeling, not only about technique, figures totally aside.
So I'll look and pay only for privates if I come upon a suitable social environment and if get input that improves my milonga and dance perception.
Maybe that my expectations collide with the teachers business requirements, but then their business is not run well for me.
 
Tango Distance said:
I'm used to, instructors ending the lesson right at the 49 minute and 59.9 second mark, and encouraging the students to go home.. this instructor seemed happy to talk Tango after the lesson.. she said that (CE) was a common problem in.. the U.S.A., but that I would not have had that issue had I grown up in Argentina..
Click to expand...
This "teacher" is quite in-experienced (better swap). It´s right the other way round. Argentina is much more prudish than the states. It doesn´t depend on US or Ar, it simply depends on your social, religious, or cultural education. In 1978 I met an argentine guy for the first time (I started chemistry at university). I was so enthusiastic over tango and raving all the time about tango and Piazzolla: he got pale and blushed. That guy from BsAs simply was shell-shocked, embarressed. In so many argentine families tango really was a no go area, sin, evil, vice.
 
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I have been surprised, I have met several Argentines, some even from Buenos Aires, who had never done Tango! They did seem pretty huggy, though.

opendoor said: "This 'teacher' is quite in-experienced (better swap)."

It doesn't matter if yesterday was the instructor's first day of Tango ever and she overestimates how huggy Buenos Aires society is. She is such an amazing read of the human body, and fixed multiple things 5 other instructors had missed, that it's hard to imagine swapping would be an upgrade! She is also the first instructor that worked on my thinking... my starts are jerky and my gait changes (not for the better!) when I go into heavy thinking mode.
 
The instructor was amazing. She would tell me to just do it, and not be afraid to make mistakes. It did actually lead to some flow moments where things just happened.... for a while... and then I'd start thinking too hard again!

It is noteworthy I was not learning new steps.
 
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Oh Baby Please Let Go!

Taking parody license with a famous Blues song:

Oh baby, please let go
Oh baby, please let go
Oh baby, please let go
Isn't Buenos Aires,
you know I love you so
but baby please let go!
...

Lady L is probably my best conventional friend among the Tango ladies (despite being old enough to be my mom). I also have a small number of confidantes, with whom I have discussed my Tango Distocity. The confidantes are mostly instructors, who I felt would benefit from my disclosure. I think that has been quite the success, the lady instructors were really good about respecting boundaries but also giving a gentle push once in a while. Lady L has not been been directly told (but might have guessed, I don't know). She'll unabashedly pull me into close embrace. She also knows Blues dancing, so I'll try to ask her if there is a Blues tanda or cortina song.

I think we had a Tanda about which you real Tangoers here on DF rave. She was reading my mind, every step was perfect, and we just continued into the Blues cortina.

The cortina ended, but she kept the embrace. I could tell she didn't want it to end. The Tango Distance of yesteryear would have bluntly said something like "Let go!" or if I were feeling particularly magnanimous "Ok, you can let go now!" and if immediate results were not obtained, squirming, twisting, and pushing moves used to effect escape. Instead, I stood there patiently. The next Tanda started, and protocol dictated we leave the floor. I tried to gently disengage, but she didn't want to let go. In an unusual display of tact, the Tango Distance left his right arm in the close embrace position, did a single Americano step, and then walked her off the floor that way.

You'd think after 10 minutes of close embrace hugging another few seconds would not be a big deal. When the tanda ends something changes and I revert somewhat back to don't-hug-me mode. Others on my thread have said this, too.

Fast forward... Apparently Lady L opened the door a crack. I was able to tell another lady didn't want to break the embrace, and it somehow seemed natural to leave the floor with the close side of the embrace arms left there. At an open embrace beginner's dance lesson, a first time lady ran up to me after the event, give me an unanticipated warm hug, and thanked me for so much fun. Two of the older ladies have given me an extended hug at the edge of the floor after a tanda, and have rested a hand on my chest.
My evolution has continued, in that I more often consider the other party in a hug decision, and if a hug is the less awkward way to handle a social situation.

Perhaps the best evidence of evolution is my giving a lady a side hug for putting on such a fantastic Tango event. After an appropriate (in my mind) number of milliseconds I started to pull away. She gripped tighter, in an unmistakeable body language gesture that said "Whoa, wait, where are you going so fast?" I waited again as many milliseconds and gently tried again, and received the same response. OK, this was getting a little out of my comfort zone but I just stood there pleasantly and waited for her to terminate the hug. Seconds passed and then I was free, and she was beaming.

The Tango Distance is progressing but not 100% huggy yet. If I know the person will understand, I sometimes accept a hug but say "Make it quick!" Men are left out, too, they get handshakes even if I know they are avid huggers. I only have so many hugs to give.

Giggling New Ladies

Virtually all ladies give me a "thank you" at the end of a tanda. Many are smiling big, and I've recently had the new experience of some reluctant to break the embrace. My biggest "thanks" recently has been two separate newbie ladies that giggled with delight the whole tanda; they were dancing very well. Both times it was a highlight of my night. I'm pretty sure alcohol was not involved. BTW I've had some similar experiences with swing dancing.
 
Tango Distance said:
The instructor was amazing. She would tell me to just do it, and not be afraid to make mistakes. It did actually lead to some flow moments where things just happened.... for a while... and then I'd start thinking too hard again!

It is noteworthy I was not learning new steps.
Click to expand...

Focusing what your partner is doing might occupy your mind and help you what to do next.
There is an excellent blog post Delusion of competence
In the end, you don't focus on your partner steps but how she moves, how she interprets the music,
how she is listening to your lead and how she responds.
Steps that you learn as a beginner are only the doors to the world of social tango.

As written in the blog post a good partner will alleviate mistakes that are happening and improve the dance.
That is why I like social dancing: "How to bring the best out my partner?" thinking necessary for a satisfactory dancing.
 
I like the honesty of beginners, they don't know enough to cover my mistakes!
Mladenac wrote:
... There is an excellent blog post Delusion of competence ...
As written in the blog post a good partner will alleviate mistakes that are happening and improve the dance.
That is why I like social dancing: "How to bring the best out my partner?" thinking necessary for a satisfactory dancing.
 
Tango Distance said:
I like the honesty of beginners, they don't know enough to cover my mistakes!
Mladenac wrote:
... There is an excellent blog post Delusion of competence ...
As written in the blog post a good partner will alleviate mistakes that are happening and improve the dance.
That is why I like social dancing: "How to bring the best out my partner?" thinking necessary for a satisfactory dancing.
Click to expand...
That is intemediate/upper intermediate level
 
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