OK, here's my first attempt at a syllabus...

[Peaches]

One point was seriously intended though, and that was that tango does seem to me to be more teacher-centrered than many other styles (but you didn't complain about the missing hyphen). I don't think that is good for the dance style, and I put it down, partly to the lack of any standardisation, even as to fundamentals. Balance might come, in each community, by the presence of a small boy, at each class, prepared to observe (as required) that the 'Emperor has No Clothes'.

I disagree. (Shocking, innit?! LOL.) I actually find that there is a lot of standardization, and a lot of agreement...if you know what to listen for. Different teachers have their own biases--some like nuevo, some like milonguero, etc. Different teachers have their own ideas of what is the core of tango. Different teachers have their own ideas of how best to explain concepts. But if you take a step back, and look at all of it, there are the same fundamental concepts running through all of it. It may be presented differently, and talked about differently, by each person...but the fundamentals are there.

And, when you step back and look at the places where there is disagreement you can really see just what is styling or preference and what is the bit that's at the core.

Personally, I love the variation among the teachers. I think it adds to the learning rather than detracts from it.

 

[bordertangoman]

I disagree. (Shcoking, innit?! LOL.) I actually find that there is a lot of standardization, and a lot of agreement...if you know what to listen for. Different teachers have their own biases--some like nuevo, some like milonguero, etc. Different teachers have their own ideas of what is the core of tango. Different teachers have their own ideas of how best to explain concepts. But if you take a step back, and look at all of it, there are the same fundamental concepts running through all of it. It may be presented differently, and talked about differently, by each person...but the fundamentals are there.

And, when you step back and look at the places where there is disagreement you can really see just what is styling or preference and what is the bit that's at the core.

Personally, I love the variation among the teachers. I think it adds to the learning rather than detracts from it.

SEE! SEE! its an elephant!

 

[Peaches]

Are you calling me fat?!

But...yes...I agree with you on that point. About a million percent agreement.

 

[bordertangoman]

The alternative, and less charitable, view is that they are generating custom for their tuition. The dancing seems to be an optional extra. There might be more of it, otherwise...

and it would be dreadful and if I ran a weekly milonga how many would come every week:
about six, if I was lucky; wheras a milonga every six weeks or so pulls in a few more people who are relieved to get away from the ttango police; in fact we're having one next monday, come : expect a mix of trad and alternative music...

 

[sixela]

One point was seriously intended though, and that was that tango does seem to me to be more teacher-centered than many other styles. I don't think that is good for the dance style,

I don't think it's that "teacher-centred", except for the lack of standardisation which means every teacher is given a lot of leeway into doing things slightly differently (which is actually its strength. There are manuals of style for prose, but fortunately, there aren't any for poetry).

Not unless you stick to only one teacher and never go to milongas, which is something that I don't recommend to anyone. Once you go to milongas, the dance soon becomes partner-centred if you're any good, and that's what should happen for a really social dance.

 

[UKDancer]

... and if I ran a weekly milonga how many would come every week: about six, if I was lucky;

I'm sure you're right - but is this right? Isn't there something wrong when only a handful of people would want to dance even once a week? I don't pretend to have an answer to that, but it puzzles me.

And I know I'm making a very parochial point on an International forum, but several posters on this thread are my (comparatively) near neighbours), but the UK's West Midlands just doesn't seem very fertile ground for tango dancing; even the longest-established teachers cannot sustain a Milonga every month. The most active group seems to be a University one - but they have a captive audience of 10,000 students looking for something to do, besides drink. (And I'm not knocking them, at all). Every other tango dancer in the Region couldn't fill a decent sized venue, whereas I could show you dozens of venues with 100+ happy dancers week-in and week-out. Perhaps it's just here?

 

[sixela]

I'm sure you're right - but is this right? Isn't there something wrong when only a handful of people would want to dance even once a week?

Depends on how many other people organise weekly milongas and how many people dance. In Brussels there are more or less five weekly milongas and that's just enough to attract a crowd; most people go to one or two milongas per week but the total population of dancers is large enough to have people at most milongas, in part because Brussels attracts people from both Flanders, Wallonia, the Southern Netherlands and Lille in Northern France. And some of the weekly milongas can have as little as 16-18 people dancing (which can actually be fine as long as the floor isn't large and 5-6 couples are dancing all the time).

As soon as there are more milongas because of some schism or misunderstanding about dates, you have Really Empty milongas (that's something that happens a lot in Antwerp which has a long tradition of milonga organisers trying to sabotage others and ending up in lose-lose situations and less dancers from out of town; the sabotaging became so bad that I quit organising one myself).

 

[AndaBien]

I'm sure you're right - but is this right? Isn't there something wrong when only a handful of people would want to dance even once a week? I don't pretend to have an answer to that, but it puzzles me.

And I know I'm making a very parochial point on an International forum, but several posters on this thread are my (comparatively) near neighbours), but the UK's West Midlands just doesn't seem very fertile ground for tango dancing; even the longest-established teachers cannot sustain a Milonga every month. The most active group seems to be a University one - but they have a captive audience of 10,000 students looking for something to do, besides drink. (And I'm not knocking them, at all). Every other tango dancer in the Region couldn't fill a decent sized venue, whereas I could show you dozens of venues with 100+ happy dancers week-in and week-out. Perhaps it's just here?

I'm sorry to hear that your tango scene is so meager. In my town there are 5 teaching groups, and they all organize a milonga once a month, sometimes twice. My guess is that most dancers no longer attend classes - they just dance.

 

[nucat78]

[...] tango is whatever the local teachers in any place say it is. [...] I know that some large cities can support dance clubs where people go mainly to dance, rather than to receive instruction, but there are very few venues (not around me, anyway) where tango dancing is to be found as a social activity, separated from teaching activities. In my nearest big city, I know of no dancing not organised by teachers, and linked directly to their teaching activities. Milongas are few and far between [...] and it may not hold good everywhere. [...] If you actually enjoy dancing, rather than writing about dancing, or buying dance shoes, or saving up for that trip the BsAs, then tango might not be the obvious choice.

Well-written and thought provoking, UK. From my observations in two major metro areas, most of your comments are spot on. I only know of one venue in Chicago that focuses on milongas with classes strictly as an add-on and that is a club, run as a hobby by two lovely people from Argentina. Locals please correct me if I'm wrong. They hold a weekly milonga which is well-attended. Aside from that, everything is so-and-so's class and practica / milonga.

 

[bordertangoman]

I'm sure you're right - but is this right? Isn't there something wrong when only a handful of people would want to dance even once a week? I don't pretend to have an answer to that, but it puzzles me.

And I know I'm making a very parochial point on an International forum, but several posters on this thread are my (comparatively) near neighbours), but the UK's West Midlands just doesn't seem very fertile ground for tango dancing; even the longest-established teachers cannot sustain a Milonga every month. The most active group seems to be a University one - but they have a captive audience of 10,000 students looking for something to do, besides drink. (And I'm not knocking them, at all). Every other tango dancer in the Region couldn't fill a decent sized venue, whereas I could show you dozens of venues with 100+ happy dancers week-in and week-out. Perhaps it's just here?

tango and tango music in particular is just not cool....

all the cool ethno-ukayans are dancing salsa, kizomba, merengue, and the rest are modern jivers

 

[UKDancer]

tango and tango music in particular is just not cool....

all the cool ethno-ukayans are dancing salsa, kizomba, merengue, and the rest are modern jivers

We'll all be dancing Bokwa next - you read it here first!

 

[tangotime]

I'm sorry to hear that your tango scene is so meager. In my town there are 5 teaching groups, and they all organize a milonga once a month, sometimes twice.


.

And you should add that, the " drawing power" is from a population approaching 5 million ! .( larger than some european countries ! )

 

[AndaBien]

And you should add that, the " drawing power" is from a population approaching 5 million ! .( larger than some european countries ! )

Of course. I was only saying there are other scenarios than the one described by UKDancer. If a place is only big enough to support one teacher, then that teacher will exert a strong influence on the dance. But that would be true for any dance, including ballroom.

There are lots of cities as big as mine, and I suppose they have many dancers who no longer attend classes.

 

[Zoopsia59]

Argh, can people please shut up about Ballroom? I'm truly sick of hearing people in an Argentine Tango forum endlessly witter on about Ballroom Dancing.

What I don't want is to have people endlessly make irrelevant comparisons which display, frankly, a lack of knowledge about learning and teaching theory

Censor much?

You know there's this filter thingy and the whole "just ignore it" thingy for posts that you feel are wittering, irrelevant, unknowledgable, ignorant, whatever... you don't have to get all worked up about them or respond insultingly to them. You can simply engage the posters that you feel are useful for answering your question or developing your ideas and ignore those of us that are annoying you so much with our use of the "B" word or our pathetic ignorance of all that you know about teaching and learning theory or whatever.

SOOOO sorry to have posted things you personally don't want posted on our forum in trying to discuss the topic you presented..

So, hold on, you're agreeing that there are standards now? So standardisation is a good thing?

Yeah, ok, this time I agree... I got too tricky with wording. I meant fundamentals... does that make it clearer? To me the fundamentals (and I'm talking about technique, not moves) are the "standards" of Tango.

There are moves which are common and considered the primary vocabulary, but that's not what I was referring to when I said that the teaching of the "standards" is often poor or absent. Too often those basic steps get taught without the fundamentals of technique that make them work, which is why I say tango doesn't lack for "standards" (ie: fundamentals), it lacks the consistent teaching of them early on.

Most of the teachers I've had actually agree on the fundamentals of technique if you get them talking about it (allowing some variations based on what style of tango you're dancing, but even then there's typically some agreement within the style or agreement outside the style that it is a style specific technique). That's what I would considered fairly "standardized" already. But for some reason, those things often don't get proper emphasis early enough to make the whole process smoother and faster for many students.

 

[Zoopsia59]

that happens a lot in Antwerp which has a long tradition of milonga organisers trying to sabotage others and ending up in lose-lose situations and less dancers from out of town; the sabotaging became so bad that I quit organising one myself).

I don't think that's unique to Antwerp... sad to say.