Passion, what are the limits?

Thanks for the understanding. I still cann't blame him. He might even think it was a compliment to me. This kind of thing does ruin one's feeling for dance, temporarily at least. I wish everyone comes to dance just for the dance.
Basically, it's a genetic disorder that a few of us men have. We see an attractive women and the blood leaves our brain to head elsewhere. After years of behavior modification (AKA beatings from the wife), it's not such a problem for me any more.

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Seriously (for a moment), this kind of stuff (guys hitting on women) can happen lots of places. It's not limited to tango, and it's certainly not your fault. Blame him, and remember, there are plenty of us guys who can be gentlemen.
 
I have had a similar encounter to Lovetango at a milonga. In that instance I felt I had behaved slightly naively which probably facilitated things somewhat, but that is the absolute limit of blaming myself. I was shocked to the core by realising that someone who I had hitherto had seen no reason to mistrust and enjoyed a pleasant social relationship with was prepared to manipulate me in order to use me, attack my self-esteem, assume I was stupid and vulnerable and to deceive significant others in his life. He failed.

How much more this reflected on him than anything I could possibly have done. So, live and learn but judge the man - not yourself.
 
It is kind of like that. All of a sudden I started to realize that people could view me with motives other than pure enjoyment of dance.

I don't really blame myself because I don't dress or behave inappropriately. I am rather conservative. .

I know a follower who gets hit on by almost every man who crosses her path in tango. When I say she gets hit on, I mean she gets propositioned outright, and sometimes is on the receiving end of blatantly lewd and obscene suggestions, not just "Will you go home with me tonight?" (Forum rules prevent me from actually posting some of what gets said to her!)

Another follower I know has almost every single guy in the tango crowd wanting to date her and several falling seriously in love with her and taking it hard when she isn't interested in being their girlfriend.

Neither of these women behave or dress inappropriately. They are both extremely naturally attractive, but also fairly classy and in no way "overdone". I have absolutely NO idea why one gets asked on dates by all the available guys, and the other gets propositioned in really obnoxious ways by creeps.

Sometimes I'm envious of how beautiful these women are, but in the long run, I'm glad I don't have to deal with this sort of thing!
 
I know a follower who gets hit on by almost every man who crosses her path in tango. When I say she gets hit on, I mean she gets propositioned outright, and sometimes is on the receiving end of blatantly lewd and obscene suggestions, not just "Will you go home with me tonight?" (Forum rules prevent me from actually posting some of what gets said to her!)

Another follower I know has almost every single guy in the tango crowd wanting to date her and several falling seriously in love with her and taking it hard when she isn't interested in being their girlfriend.

Neither of these women behave or dress inappropriately. They are both extremely naturally attractive, but also fairly classy and in no way "overdone". I have absolutely NO idea why one gets asked on dates by all the available guys, and the other gets propositioned in really obnoxious ways by creeps.

Sometimes I'm envious of how beautiful these women are, but in the long run, I'm glad I don't have to deal with this sort of thing!

Ha.
That reminds me of a certain vals:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQAwJcz1cTE

;)
 
If you want to blame someone, don't blame yourself but blame the guy. BUT why would you want to blame someone?

I guess I'm not going to be popular with this view, but I don't see the reason to work up yourself on this; I think a better way to approach this issue is to get used to it that it could happen. I have never made such propositions and not planning to go down this path either, but I see no reason why to take a normative attitude towards someone who gives it a try. You don't want it, you make this clear to him, and end of story (if it is not the end of story, well then the guy is definitely to be blamed); in case you would want it I'm sure you wouldn't complain that the possibility emerged.

If there is something to blame then I think it's the centuries of religiously motivated cultural abuse against taking a natural attitude towards sexuality. Given the availability of effective birth control there is no real reason to view having consensual sex with someone as an activity which is utterly different than any other activities, including partner dancing, which two person can pursue with each other. In an enlightened age where women are, as they should, viewed in all respect equal to man by all parties maybe we could open up a bit and put away normative evaluations regarding sexual behavior and propositions for engaging in one. Everyone should follow, of course, his/her preferences regarding his/her sexual life, but why would we want to create a social environment with strong negative social feedback circles based on blame to push those who would be interested in consensual promiscuous activities underground?
 
If you want to blame someone, don't blame yourself but blame the guy. BUT why would you want to blame someone?

I guess I'm not going to be popular with this view, but I don't see the reason to work up yourself on this; I think a better way to approach this issue is to get used to it that it could happen. I have never made such propositions and not planning to go down this path either, but I see no reason why to take a normative attitude towards someone who gives it a try. You don't want it, you make this clear to him, and end of story (if it is not the end of story, well then the guy is definitely to be blamed); in case you would want it I'm sure you wouldn't complain that the possibility emerged.

If there is something to blame then I think it's the centuries of religiously motivated cultural abuse against taking a natural attitude towards sexuality. Given the availability of effective birth control there is no real reason to view having consensual sex with someone as an activity which is utterly different than any other activities, including partner dancing, which two person can pursue with each other. In an enlightened age where women are, as they should, viewed in all respect equal to man by all parties maybe we could open up a bit and put away normative evaluations regarding sexual behavior and propositions for engaging in one. Everyone should follow, of course, his/her preferences regarding his/her sexual life, but why would we want to create a social environment with strong negative social feedback circles based on blame to push those who would be interested in consensual promiscuous activities underground?
I agree with everything that you've said.

However...

Believing that on an intellectual level does not always translate to feeling that on an emotional level. If you're just going about your normal business, being friendly, not dressing inappropriately*, not doing anything that would cause someone else to approach with that sort of a question under normal circumstances...well, it's unnerving. And it can make you question yourself and your actions and how you dress and a whole host of other things. This is particularly true, IME, if you're wearing a wedding band or similar and the propositioning still happens. So, while I understand and agree with what you're saying, I also understand how the OP felt. It's not pleasant.

*I'm not looking to open that can of worms--I don't believe that woman is ever "asking" for it, or that how she dresses is to blame if bad things happen to her...let's use some common sense here and some reasonableness, yeah?
 
...maybe we could open up a bit and put away normative evaluations...

I agree with gyb's comments, and with Peaches subsequent comment. No matter what we think about something, we still need to handle our emotions about it.

But thanks for introducing a new word to my vocabulary. I think it's a concept we might find useful in this forum.
 
If there is something to blame then I think it's the centuries of religiously motivated cultural abuse against taking a natural attitude towards sexuality.
Partly. For whatever reason, sexuality is still an area where social controls and taboos are going to be very strong, probably because it is such a powerful force. I don't see that changing any time soon, because so much of human behaviour is locked into it. It can also be a destructive force as well as positive and constructive one.

Given the availability of effective birth control there is no real reason to view having consensual sex with someone as an activity which is utterly different than any other activities, including partner dancing, which two person can pursue with each other.
If you are seeking to reduce the significance of having consensual sex to the same level as having a dance with someone I think you're a bit misguided. I think in some ways it is utterly different from all other activities - partly because of the wall of social convention which surrounds it.


Everyone should follow, of course, his/her preferences regarding his/her sexual life, but why would we want to create a social environment with strong negative social feedback circles based on blame to push those who would be interested in consensual promiscuous activities underground?
The problem arises when two sets of personal rules and mores are in conflict. How would you propose to reconcile them?
 
I can't quote others without being sent to the moderation loop, so..

re Peaches (51): I also think I understand how the OP felt and I'm never happy to see someone suffering, no matter what is the degree to which the suffering is self-inflicted. But there are sufferings which warrant community action and there are others which, although their occurrence is very unfortunate, do not. Bringing in a normative tone (who needs to be "blamed") is one type of community action, it is the basis on which people get socially isolated and rejected by the community. We had a number of commenters reinforcing the attitude that the guy should be blamed for the mere proposal, and I reacted to that.
Not as an analogy, but as an example: I also understand why would someone, who was raised in a certain strongly religious community, would have the gut-reaction of disgust to the first gay pride parade he sees. It is because he was brainwashed from early childhood. I have no reason to believe that he wouldn't be honest in reporting his psychological inconvenience caused by the sight; he was culturally conditioned to have this reaction, and I understand that. But that suffering and this understanding does not warrant at all to join a crowd which claims that gays should be blamed for parading on the streets ("it's ok to do at home but not in front of others" type BS) just because it can hurt uninitiated homophobes, no matter how many of these latter are still out there.

re Madahlia (53): you ask what I propose to reconcile two sets of conflicting personal rules. I don't think that the solution is easy, but I do think the main foundation is straightforward: it is freedom of expression and freedom of speech. As long as there is no physical or psychological coercion involved and the parties merely express their preferences and propose options to others in a consensual basis, without intention to cause harm, there is no reason to retaliate (say by means of community blame). On the contrary, people should embrace those who respect the lines and communicate their state of mind to others; this allows to compare the "sets of personal rules" to each other and to find out which one is compatible with which other, as opposed to potentially suffering for a long time as a consequence of the lack of communication which was restrained by the presence of negative community reactions.

My reaction would be entirely different if the guy mentioned by the OP were going around groping partners while dancing or such, for that would clearly not fall into the category of freedom of expression and speech. But if I got the story right the verbal proposal happened after the tanda in the end of the night without the presence of any accompanying inappropriate physical advance. That is freedom of speech without any intention to cause harm, and although it can understandably cause inconvenience for someone who have not experienced propositions like that (or who has unfortunate history with sexual abuse etc), but it does not warrant, in my view, community action or negative normative evaluation.
 
I really appreciate everyone's input. It is enlightening to view different opinions on this issue.

To gyb: I don't blame anyone. If you read my post you will know that. I think when others talking about "blame", they were trying to get me not to blame myself. They wanted me feel better so that I could still enjoy tango.

I think the debate is worthwhile and I don't have to be in the picture.

Thanks again, everyone!
 
Not as an analogy, but as an example: I also understand why would someone ... would have the gut-reaction of disgust to the first gay pride parade he sees. ... this understanding does not warrant at all to join a crowd which claims that gays should be blamed for parading on the streets

I find this to be a rather useless comparison to the actual situation we are discussing. The OP did not just witness others engaging in something she found in conflict with her personal values and judge the other people. She was directly targeted and approached and found herself judging herself.

A much more comparable situation would be a straight man who gets propositioned by a gay man and subsequently questions what he is doing to send off vibes that might make others think he is gay and whether he should change his behavior or stop going certain places. He might also view that incident as a "warning" that he needs to heed to prevent something worse next time from someone more aggressive who misconstrues his demeanor or behavior.

As long as there is no physical or psychological coercion involved and the parties merely express their preferences and propose options to others in a consensual basis, without intention to cause harm, there is no reason to retaliate

I agree. That's why I pointed out that the guy in question clearly knows that a dance is not an invitation for sex because he didn't ACT on such an assumption. He instead made the invitation for sex himself. I also didn't advise her to retaliate (nor did anyone else that I read) I advised her to be direct and upfront with him the next time she sees him, both to honor what you are saying and to regain a sense of control of the situation in which she found herself (which should help her get past this quickly).

The part of the OP's story that seemed significant to me was that she was shocked, but not unduly distressed, at the time of the incident. It was LATER, the next time she went out to tango that her anxiety kicked in. I think it's important to note that she didn't overreact to the incident, but that her worries came from a re-evaluation of herself and tango in general that occurred after the fact.

This is so reminiscent of mild PTSD or a victim of assault, that to say she shouldn't make more of this than it warrants (while true) is somewhat useless advise. She DIDN"T make much of this at the time. She got freaked later and unexpectedly when she went to engage in the activity again. So bringing out her subconscious reaction, emotions and thought process to the incident is important to prevent it from taking on too much significance.

Ironically, I think you and I agree on the most basic elements of this situation. But I think there is a big difference in telling someone something along the lines of: "You shouldn't be bothered by this so much" vs saying to them. "You don't have to allow this to bother you to the extent of making changes in your life and behavior. You can regain a sense of control and get over this quickly". One response is invalidating and the other is empowering.

I agree that the word "blame" in respect to him may be a bit harsh. The point is though that she shouldn't believe that she brought this on herself by something that she needs to change. He is responsible for his assumptions, desires and how he acts on them, so saying "He is responsible" (for the incident itself) may be a better way to put it, that "He is 'to blame'". And it is HER responsibility to do what she needs to do to move past it, including posting on a message board if that's what helps her.

My guess is that just relating the incident and getting feedback will probably make a huge difference when she goes out to tango next time. I hope so! (LoveTango, I hope you will post an update next time you go out, so we'll know how you're doing)
 
but I see no reason why to take a normative attitude towards someone who gives it a try. You don't want it, you make this clear to him, and end of story (if it is not the end of story, well then the guy is definitely to be blamed); in case you would want it I'm sure you wouldn't complain that the possibility emerged.

I have some problems with your view gyb because in the long run the dancing would suffer.

I agree that maybe if you are dancing most of the night with the same partner, the milonga ends and you pop the question that seems fine to me.

I am not so sure about the situation if after every tanda a guy pops the question and asks a girl back to his place.

I say that because if every guy did the same then the milonga will become like a singles club. I have been told by many women that go to Tango one of the main reasons they like it is because it is not like a singles club and they feel safe to relax in the embrace and enjoy the dance. Partnered women also tell me that their partners are quite relaxed about them going to Tango as opposed to a singles club.

However I think all this would change if milongas became a singles club and the dancing would suffer.
 
Just a reminder to everyone that DF discussions should be appropriate for minors as young as 13. Discussions of sexuality, etc should be left to other venues.
 
Hi my tango forum friends,

I am very happy to find out that I am still capable of enjoying tango. I do feel a little shy about venturing out to less familiar environment (being avoiding it since). I feel content just dancing at my favorite milonga where many dancers become my friends. the kind of friends that you don't need to talk about personal life, just share the passion for tango.

I think it is time for me to say good bye to this thread (in order to remain anonymous, I will not disclose my interaction with that particular leader).

Thank you everyone for your kindness and wisdom.
 

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