Physical limitations and tango

[dchester]

Wow, I'm coming across very differently from what my original intentions were (thanks for pointing that out!) and for that I apologize.

I most definitely do not want to dismiss ballet training. I wrote that I'm reading up on ballet training to get some ideas on foot and ankle strengthening. What I said in the previous post was that I thought Pilates was "not for me," because I am not at the level of fitness of a ballet dancer or presumably a different dancer that has benefited from Pilates. I'm not against Pilates, yoga, and running, I'm against people recommending them indiscriminately to everyone, without any sort of caveats.

I also don't want to dismiss suggestions from people. I am trying to move the conversation to a more specific level. I've been dancing for a while, so I've heard a lot of these suggestions and tried most of them. Now I'd like to understand the why's. Why is yoga helping people and what exactly about yoga is it that they are benefiting from (ok, stretching, but what exactly is it important to stretch?). What muscles is Pilates strengthening that are helping dancers, so I can target those muscles in a different way that perhaps won't hurt my lower back (sure, the "core", but what exactly does that mean?). I guess I'm curious if people have dug into this.

None of us knows how flexible you are, how strong you are, how good your stamina is, etc.. We can't really answer whether you need any weight training (and any kind of cross training) or not. Indiscriminate advice is all we can really offer you, based on the little we know about you. You said you need or want weight training, so there's nothing more to discuss about it, IMO.


In any case, it's my personal opinion that your focus should be more on what the issues you are having with your dance, and how to improve them (which would include things specific to tango technique, instead of just cross training).

Example, you alluded to some issues with pivoting. It might be more productive to ask about technique about whatever move involving pivots (like back ochos), that you are having problems with.

While cross training could help some, working on your tango technique will likely help a lot more.


Now with that being said, you asked about core. Your "core" (or core muscles) are the muscles around your abdomen and back. These muscles help with your stability and balance (among other things). An awful lot of people think pilates is an excellent way to strengthen core muscles. However, like I've already said, we don't really know if you need to strengthen your core or not.

 

[bordertangoman]

PS - If I'm barking up the wrong tree, please everyone let me know! I think it's ok to just say "here we'll just have to agree to disagree". I think tango practice + general strength training is important, others think just practicing tango is enough and strength comes along in due time. I can have a conversation about why I think it's important for me to do general strength training as well as tango-specific practice, but I can't argue against "tango's easy, you don't need strength for that" or "just do tango, you'll get stronger the more you practice". That doesn't seem like a discussion, it seems like "yes it is - no it isn't" .

As for how specifically to go about the general conditioning program, I would like a discussion, not just "do yoga" or "do pilates". I know some people will say I'm splitting hairs and it may be true, I may be overthinking. But I really want to understand what I'm doing to my body instead of just doing what others have done and hoping for the best. Will an instructor be crucial to reach that understand? Certainly, but there is not a lot of option where I live at the moment. So for lack of a teacher, I am trying to be self-taught.

lifting up and down in bare feet will strentghen them, as will pivoting and double weighted pivots. Swimming will tone you up generally including core muscles. Twisting your torso will keep the core muscles and you flexible. Little and often is best. Practice pivots in and out of heels.

 

[Steve Pastor]

I do try to work on my posture, but I don't find it as straightforward as keeping the shoulders back and the head up. Pulling the shoulders back obviously is the first thing people do to fix posture, but I think there's good reason to think that's not ideal. I've been working on cues like "put your shoulder blades into your back pockets". But really, I think bad posture often comes from muscle imbalances, so I'm trying to figure out what's weak and what's tight that's leading to my posture.

Here's a specific suggestion. Become conscious of the area where the base of your head connects to the spine. Press that area straight back. You might try this while you watch yourself in profile in a mirror. You'll notice, if you are like me, that you chest will come up, your abdomen will come in, your shoulders will come back a bit...

In short it will improve your posture.
Having just one area to concentrate on is very helpful.

At first it will feel forced, because it is. Keep doing it over a long period of time, and your body will become accustomed to it.

This is something Skippy Blair came up with, calling that area the "centering knob."

 

[Lilly_of_the_valley]

I don't believe most people are that specific about their physical activity. Even professional dancers are not. There are disciplines that are used by dancers more often for cross training like pilates or yoga or alexander technique, but some do lets say, boxing, tai chi or flying trapeze and are very happy with it. You do what satisfies you for whatever reason, after a while you get bored with it or it does not seem to be that effective or it does not longer fit your schedule or.... so, you switch to something else, etc. It does not really matter as much what exactly you do as long as it feels like you get something out of it.

Also, I have seen women who are extremely, incredibly fit, and yet do not dance tango nearly as well as others who look like they never have done any physical exercise. Of course, the poor physical shape will interfere with the dancing, but in the end it is about using what you've got the best possible way.

 

[JohnEm]

Tango Fitness

I'm going to generalise wildly while agreeing with the general trend towards
Alexander Technique (no personal experience) and Pilates. I have some
experience of Pilates style exercises for back management and core
strengthening. I and others I know have had back problems which require
consistent effort to resolve and in my case posture problems as well.

We bring what we are to tango: the closer the embrace the less can be hidden
from your partner. I firmly believe that in order to be relaxed in tango
the physical requirements need to be well within your capability. Internal
tone, connection, core and posture need to be natural and normal to you
in order to be relaxed yet in the moment. You have to bring those attributes
with you, not just try, nor expect to be able, to turn them on when required.
Balance can be improved by strengthening and development exercise.

Dancing close embrace (apilado) tango well, which is all I'm interested in,
is surprisingly physically demanding. Dance needs preparation for its own
requirements of fitness.

A little story from last weekend's Formula 1 race in China. Jenson Button
came second and he was asked about the after effects of a Triathlon he
had recently completed. A news report says this:
The McLaren driver is in the middle of a three-week break and spent it
taking part in the triathlon as an amateur. Button completed the 1.5km
swim, 40k bike ride, and 10k run in a little over two hours.

He is reputed to be the fittest man in F1 and he dismissed the after effects
saying it was two weeks ago and long gone. Additionally he stated that
such competition sharpens his competitive edge and provides pain that
an F1 driver does not experience. But this experience enables him to be able
to relax and focus on the racing. He is known too for his relaxed and calm
manner. Not only that he is a clinically accurate and sensitive driver.

If a top sportsman, with honed reflexes, fitness and strength we can only dream
about, seeks demands well beyond those of his own sport, then the relatively
easy extra exercises needed for strength yet suppleness in tango are well worth doing.

 

[Lilly_of_the_valley]

I don't think anyone argues against the benefit of the physical exercise. My point was that there are no magic bullets, and there could be no strict science that would tell anyone what exactly he or she is supposed to do.

 

[JohnEm]

I don't think anyone argues against the benefit of the physical exercise. My point was that there are no magic bullets, and there could be no strict science that would tell anyone what exactly he or she is supposed to do.

Sorry Lilly_of_the_Valley, I had intended to remove the quote of your post.

Your point is well made, this is all very individual and each individual has
to establish his/her own deficiencies and find the necessary remedies.

My post was aimed at those who don't think that dance preparation is desirable
and that dance itself is enough. I am reminded of a non-tango dance teacher
who claimed that dance had the magical properties of improving posture.
She assumed that from mere observation of some of her pupils
but she ignored the work going on behind the scenes by some of those.

Dance can inspire the desire to improve physically but the improvement itself
needs effort outside the dance.

 

[toothlesstiger]

Wow, I'm coming across very differently from what my original intentions were (thanks for pointing that out!) and for that I apologize...

Thanks for this reset. I think it is perhaps a misperception that Pilates, or ballet training, for example, are only for experienced dancers. In fact, I know a number of older people (older than me, even) that have gotten great benefit taking up Pilates late in life, as it corrects bad postural habits acquired over decades. Similarly, I know a number of ladies who take up ballet either when their daughters do, or when their kids have left the nest. For the most part they won't get en pointe, but they do get some benefit.

All of these activities, everybody had to be a beginner at some point, and with practice got better.

The single most important insight I got into how my body works happened when I was in my early thirties. I had taken up various exercise regimens, only to drop them about six months later, because the results weren't matching my expectations.

When I dropped the expectations, I found I was able to persist in these exercise programs for far longer. I stopped looking for obvious, visible, benefits, and had faith that they would improve my overall health, long term. In that way, I learned some things about my body, its limitations, and what makes it work better, and that was much more valuable in the long term than a "beach body". Not that I'm implying that that is what you are looking for, I'm just suggesting it's worthwhile to lower your expectations of the "entrance requirements" for various exercise programs.

 

[Peaches]

Personally, I'm really having a hard time understanding where you're coming from on this. You've started young, which gives you a good advantage right there (assuming you don't have specific limitations or disabilities). AT generally isn't the most athletic of dances...if it was, I couldn't do it. I'm (practically) 34, have problems with my knees and back that I've had for years, am overweight, and a relatively heavy smoker. And, yet, I find none of the problems you describe. OK, I can't go into a low knee-bend of any sort, but that has always been a problem for me.

Problems with pivots require learning about your own balance. If you're having problems in heels that high, start lower and develop your foot strength. If it's posture, that can be worked on by learning what is correct and being conscious of it. Just dancing more will fix a lot of those problems, although lessons/feedback is tremendously helpful.

If you're just looking for a reason to go do other training, then just do other training. But I really don't think there's much of anything about AT that should require it. Hell, 70-year-old people, who are definitely not keeping fit otherwise, manage to do it.

 

[Lilly_of_the_valley]

Personally, I'm really having a hard time understanding where you're coming from on this. You've started young, which gives you a good advantage right there (assuming you don't have specific limitations or disabilities). AT generally isn't the most athletic of dances...if it was, I couldn't do it. I'm (practically) 34, have problems with my knees and back that I've had for years, am overweight, and a relatively heavy smoker. And, yet, I find none of the problems you describe. OK, I can't go into a low knee-bend of any sort, but that has always been a problem for me.

Problems with pivots require learning about your own balance. If you're having problems in heels that high, start lower and develop your foot strength. If it's posture, that can be worked on by learning what is correct and being conscious of it. Just dancing more will fix a lot of those problems, although lessons/feedback is tremendously helpful.

If you're just looking for a reason to go do other training, then just do other training. But I really don't think there's much of anything about AT that should require it. Hell, 70-year-old people, who are definitely not keeping fit otherwise, manage to do it.

I am thinking, what is considered fit or unfit, physically demanding or not may be somewhat subjective and relative. For example, in my case, tango is not (by far) the most physically demanding activity I have done in my life. For me, probably walking a large and curious dog would be more challenging physically than dancing for the same amount of time. But there are people who probably would not see the dog walking as a form of exercise of any sort, but for instance, believe that walking backward on high heels is, and so on.

 

[Steve Pastor]

But keeping good posture and being on axis on 4-inch stilettos while twisting, turning, and basically doing lunges on the balls of your feet?

Just something I noticed, and after mentioning milongueros...

 

[opendoor]

I'm not against Pilates, yoga, and running, I'm against people recommending them indiscriminately to everyone, without any sort of caveats.

Agreed !

 

[Zoopsia59]

Basically, here's where I'm coming from. I started tango (as a follower) with no dancing (or sport, fitness etc) experience and in pretty bad physical shape. Not talking about extra weight, just low fitness level: weak muscles, stiff joints, bad reaction time, not good at proprioception, bad everyday posture etc. Almost everyone told me I just needed to practice, to dance as much as possible, take classes, and I will improve. Nowadays I think that was partly misguided. I think dancers should be encouraged to address their physical limitations separately from their tango practice. Dancing is a very complex pattern of movements and people will compensate for limited range of motion or limited muscle recruitment by adopting inefficient and potentially harmful compensatory movement patterns. Good luck trying to achieve good technique when you've grooved such patterns .

Well, the thread got long already while I wasn't looking, so apologies if I say something already covered ad-nauseum... I'm too lazy to read through it and then go back to respond.. I started to, and gave up.

1st of all, good for you that you want to do stuff outside of class to improve. Far too many people never work on their own (on tango specifically or on cross training) and they think they will improve from only class and the occasional practica or milonga. They might, but it will take forever. And as you point out, they may be "cheating" rather than addressing certain physical habits.

I also have some rather annoying physical limitations, and lately I have been seeking how to work around them rather than fix them as they seem unfixable. However, I came to that conclusion only after YEARS of tango so that I could separate what I could fix (albeit slowly with much work) vs what I could not and never will.

There are so many possible cross training methods, that the key is to find one that works for YOU. Different people are helped by different things. Personally, I found figure skating to be excellent for encouraging me to use my knees, avoid my tendency to dance on tip-toe, get (keep) my heels down (TOE PICK!) and keep my weight forward (but not TOO forward on my feet... TOE PICK!... forward with my intention, even going backward). The "sweet spot" of the blade where you want to be for spins and footwork corresponds with the part of your foot you want to have your weight in tango. It helped with attempting a more grounded earthy style and the idea of having my supporting leg bent and my reaching leg straight.

It did NOT help with my unfortunate tendency to stick my butt out (actually makes that worse, although it does cause me to keep my chest up when my butt is out.. small comfort) or my habit of worrying about what's behind me when I'm going backwards. It won't help you with foot strength or flexibility because the boots are stiff. Overall though, the pluses FAR outweighed the minuses... and it also makes you stronger. I was MUCH stronger when I skated all the time vs now that I do tango and rarely skate.

Ballet is fabulous for your feet... (unless you dance on pointe, in which case it will ruin your feet) I don't know of anything else that comes close. If the concept of "caressing the floor" is a challenge, ballet should help. It also helps with flexibility and strength both in your feet and in the rest of your body. It helps with balance. Ballet is also fabulous for your posture. Every time I take a ballet class, i stand straighter for days.

The caution for transferring ballet to tango is that in ballet, you frequently have the supporting knee very straight and the "working" leg bent. You also dance on 1/2 toe (ie: as far up on your toes as you can go wihtout pointe shoes) You do not want to dance up on your toes in tango, nor do you want your supporting knee so straight. Ballet also tends to work the legs from the top of the thigh (where it meets the body) down and tango uses the legs more from the bottom of the ribcage down. In other words, in ballet, the leg movement is independent of the hips (which are still) but it's very different in tango. Personally, I don't think beginner ballet dancers are going to have as much trouble as more advanced ballet dancers for whom certain things are seriously ingrained habits. I think the potential benefits outweigh the contradictions, especially if you are aware of them from the outset.

I've heard really great things about Martial Arts for cross training, but I have no personal experience with it.

 

[Zoopsia59]

Your average ballroom dancing evening is about as much of a workout as light gardening.

Unless you do a lot of Quickstep.

 

[Zoopsia59]

Bonus points if the cross training is more challenging for you than tango itself.

You mean there are things out there more challenging than tango?