Placements, Pros, and how it matters

My lesson this week was disorganized. Pro seemed uncharacteristically unfocused and easily distracted. We worked mostly on Smooth - I MUST keep my left elbow up ALL.THE.TIME. and not rest it limply on his right bicep; must not let my head come upright or forward as we move in and out of closed hold; must stop opening WAY too far out in promenade; must maintain my balance over my feet more consistently; must use standing leg more effectively; must not “fall out of” his right hand; must sway more consistently in Viennese waltz; must keep my feet better connected to the floor; must stop anticipating his lead and just “be in the moment”; must work to keep up with his increased shaping and swing-&-sway…good Lord, the list goes on and on and on.

He said he did more extensive shaping at Empire than he has ever done with me before, and wants that to be our new baseline, which is fine with me. He also arranged my body and limbs into the frame he wants me to maintain at all times - even when we’re just being casual at lessons - and suggested some exercises I should do at home to reinforce that.

We agree that in Smooth style, I am probably not ready to compete in Silver, although I’m improving. He’d like to see how well I dance at another comp or two in Bronze. (Note that I said how well I “dance,” not how well I “place.”) But I challenged him, “are you waiting to teach me Silver until you think I will be competitively successful in Silver?” He hedged but eventually admitted yes, that’s sorta kinda his approach.

I said, “so…what if I never compete again? Does that mean you’ll never teach me Silver?” He said no. I asked, “what do I need to be able to do - what does my body need to be capable of - before you’ll think I’m ready to learn Silver?” He couldn’t give a specific answer to that - nor did I really expect him to - but he talked some more about the things I listed in the first paragraph above. I asked incredulously, “are you saying that I have to ‘master’ all of those things before I’ll be ready for Silver?” He laughed & said no, of course not; those are things that will always be improving, and I will be working on them into Silver and beyond (if applicable). So, then, why not go ahead & start learning Silver?

He acknowledged that in terms of comp placements, I might do fine in Silver at some smaller comps, but he is adamant that if I entered Silver Smooth right now at a comp like OSB or USDC, I would absolutely get my a$$ kicked and handed to me on a plate. Having watched videos of the Silver smooth heats at many of those larger comps, I think he’s right. Therefore, since my goals do not include collecting trophies, and my budget only allows for 2 comps per year, and I prefer to attend comps that are likely to have semis or even quarters, I don’t plan to compete in Silver Smooth any time soon.

HOWEVER - Rhythm is a different story. In Rhythm, he’s on board with me competing in Open Bronze (in which we’d do the “cooler” of our bronze figures plus a few new-to-me silver figures) and Pre Silver, at whatever comp we do next - even if our next comp just might turn out to be OSB in November. (!!!!!!) He said that before Empire, he didn’t think I’d be ready for Silver this year. But he said my dancing improved noticeably (and unexpectedly) in the weeks before Empire, especially in how I use my arms. (He specifically mentioned the way I used my arms in bolero at Ohio last year, and rolled his eyes and said, “I mean, that was just childish.” He’s not wrong about that.)
 
My lesson this week was disorganized. Pro seemed uncharacteristically unfocused and easily distracted. We worked mostly on Smooth - I MUST keep my left elbow up ALL.THE.TIME. and not rest it limply on his right bicep; must not let my head come upright or forward as we move in and out of closed hold; must stop opening WAY too far out in promenade; must maintain my balance over my feet more consistently; must use standing leg more effectively; must not “fall out of” his right hand; must sway more consistently in Viennese waltz; must keep my feet better connected to the floor; must stop anticipating his lead and just “be in the moment”; must work to keep up with his increased shaping and swing-&-sway…good Lord, the list goes on and on and on.

He said he did more extensive shaping at Empire than he has ever done with me before, and wants that to be our new baseline, which is fine with me. He also arranged my body and limbs into the frame he wants me to maintain at all times - even when we’re just being casual at lessons - and suggested some exercises I should do at home to reinforce that.

We agree that in Smooth style, I am probably not ready to compete in Silver, although I’m improving. He’d like to see how well I dance at another comp or two in Bronze. (Note that I said how well I “dance,” not how well I “place.”) But I challenged him, “are you waiting to teach me Silver until you think I will be competitively successful in Silver?” He hedged but eventually admitted yes, that’s sorta kinda his approach.

I said, “so…what if I never compete again? Does that mean you’ll never teach me Silver?” He said no. I asked, “what do I need to be able to do - what does my body need to be capable of - before you’ll think I’m ready to learn Silver?” He couldn’t give a specific answer to that - nor did I really expect him to - but he talked some more about the things I listed in the first paragraph above. I asked incredulously, “are you saying that I have to ‘master’ all of those things before I’ll be ready for Silver?” He laughed & said no, of course not; those are things that will always be improving, and I will be working on them into Silver and beyond (if applicable). So, then, why not go ahead & start learning Silver?

He acknowledged that in terms of comp placements, I might do fine in Silver at some smaller comps, but he is adamant that if I entered Silver Smooth right now at a comp like OSB or USDC, I would absolutely get my a$$ kicked and handed to me on a plate. Having watched videos of the Silver smooth heats at many of those larger comps, I think he’s right. Therefore, since my goals do not include collecting trophies, and my budget only allows for 2 comps per year, and I prefer to attend comps that are likely to have semis or even quarters, I don’t plan to compete in Silver Smooth any time soon.

HOWEVER - Rhythm is a different story. In Rhythm, he’s on board with me competing in Open Bronze (in which we’d do the “cooler” of our bronze figures plus a few new-to-me silver figures) and Pre Silver, at whatever comp we do next - even if our next comp just might turn out to be OSB in November. (!!!!!!) He said that before Empire, he didn’t think I’d be ready for Silver this year. But he said my dancing improved noticeably (and unexpectedly) in the weeks before Empire, especially in how I use my arms. (He specifically mentioned the way I used my arms in bolero at Ohio last year, and rolled his eyes and said, “I mean, that was just childish.” He’s not wrong about that.)
May I suggest that you pick only 3 or 4 musts for a couple of weeks to focus on :)?

And I'm glad you can move up in rhythm. I think you will enjoy open bronze and silver.

Finally, there is nothing wrong with getting our butt kicked at comps sometimes. I'm not ready for USDC but because I want to see where I stand exactly, I still rather do that comp than any other. My only sourness about it relates to the studio rules I outlines earlier, but minus that, I'm looking forward to being beaten by some good dancers.
 
Some of you asked me about other options for dance studios nearby, and I actually found a Hungarian dance instructor close to me at a Fred Astaire studio that is owned and operated by Hungarians. I love my Pro and am not planning on switching for now, but I guess it feels nice that I have some options at least. Any of you know anything about that studio and/or Pro, please let me know.

It is always good to have options. You never know when you might need them.
 
My lesson this week was disorganized. Pro seemed uncharacteristically unfocused and easily distracted. We worked mostly on Smooth - I MUST keep my left elbow up ALL.THE.TIME. and not rest it limply on his right bicep; must not let my head come upright or forward as we move in and out of closed hold; must stop opening WAY too far out in promenade; must maintain my balance over my feet more consistently; must use standing leg more effectively; must not “fall out of” his right hand; must sway more consistently in Viennese waltz; must keep my feet better connected to the floor; must stop anticipating his lead and just “be in the moment”; must work to keep up with his increased shaping and swing-&-sway…good Lord, the list goes on and on and on.

He said he did more extensive shaping at Empire than he has ever done with me before, and wants that to be our new baseline, which is fine with me. He also arranged my body and limbs into the frame he wants me to maintain at all times - even when we’re just being casual at lessons - and suggested some exercises I should do at home to reinforce that.

We agree that in Smooth style, I am probably not ready to compete in Silver, although I’m improving. He’d like to see how well I dance at another comp or two in Bronze. (Note that I said how well I “dance,” not how well I “place.”) But I challenged him, “are you waiting to teach me Silver until you think I will be competitively successful in Silver?” He hedged but eventually admitted yes, that’s sorta kinda his approach.

I said, “so…what if I never compete again? Does that mean you’ll never teach me Silver?” He said no. I asked, “what do I need to be able to do - what does my body need to be capable of - before you’ll think I’m ready to learn Silver?” He couldn’t give a specific answer to that - nor did I really expect him to - but he talked some more about the things I listed in the first paragraph above. I asked incredulously, “are you saying that I have to ‘master’ all of those things before I’ll be ready for Silver?” He laughed & said no, of course not; those are things that will always be improving, and I will be working on them into Silver and beyond (if applicable). So, then, why not go ahead & start learning Silver?

He acknowledged that in terms of comp placements, I might do fine in Silver at some smaller comps, but he is adamant that if I entered Silver Smooth right now at a comp like OSB or USDC, I would absolutely get my a$$ kicked and handed to me on a plate. Having watched videos of the Silver smooth heats at many of those larger comps, I think he’s right. Therefore, since my goals do not include collecting trophies, and my budget only allows for 2 comps per year, and I prefer to attend comps that are likely to have semis or even quarters, I don’t plan to compete in Silver Smooth any time soon.

HOWEVER - Rhythm is a different story. In Rhythm, he’s on board with me competing in Open Bronze (in which we’d do the “cooler” of our bronze figures plus a few new-to-me silver figures) and Pre Silver, at whatever comp we do next - even if our next comp just might turn out to be OSB in November. (!!!!!!) He said that before Empire, he didn’t think I’d be ready for Silver this year. But he said my dancing improved noticeably (and unexpectedly) in the weeks before Empire, especially in how I use my arms. (He specifically mentioned the way I used my arms in bolero at Ohio last year, and rolled his eyes and said, “I mean, that was just childish.” He’s not wrong about that.)
Also, based on the videos I saw, you used your arms beautifully.
 
But I challenged him, “are you waiting to teach me Silver until you think I will be competitively successful in Silver?” He hedged but eventually admitted yes, that’s sorta kinda his approach.
Ah ha! I guessed the correct plot line ;-)

It's so funny, both of our teachers talk about how placements don't matter. But in actuality, it does matter to them.

In my lessons, in the past I'm full of over confident bravo and talk about crushing my enemies. But lately I've been trying a different approach. When Pro teases me about placements, I'd reply.. "Oh, I'm so comfortable losing."

I think he's not as comfortable with that script.

I told him, "placements don't matter", and he doesn't believe that I believe that.

I think I believe it 30% which is way higher then before!!! Next comp is coming up soon, I better place top 3! *cough* Not that placements matter.

FINE. Placements don't matter but it would be nice if I place top 3. Thank you.

Two things can be true at the same time.
 
Two things can be true at the same time.
Yes.

A long time ago, there was a high school student in a sort of "high school work" program at a national lab where I worked. She was going to do interviews, and wanted to know how to handle certain types of questions. Would answer A be ok? Or was it a lie? Or what? She was all worried about the idea of "The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth". She wanted pharmacy and while her main reasons were professional, the idea of fitting it into a life balance was an element. As in: not a job involving irregular hours, not a lot of travel, not a lot of turn over. Blah... blah....

I told her she didn't need to give the whole truth about her dreams for her entire life. She could stick to the professional aspects of her life. She also didn't have to add something like "and it pays more than waiting tables" etc.

Many contradictory sounding things can be true at the same time.

Placements don't matter, and yet they do.

Both are true.
 
It's possible to dance your best at a compensation and still come in last in your events. It's also possible to dance mediocre, depending on what you are capable of, and place or even win your events.

So, it's all relative.

There is some self-satisfaction at dancing your best and making finals/placing in the top 3/winning at the same time.
 
Ah ha! I guessed the correct plot line ;-)

It's so funny, both of our teachers talk about how placements don't matter. But in actuality, it does matter to them.

In my lessons, in the past I'm full of over confident bravo and talk about crushing my enemies. But lately I've been trying a different approach. When Pro teases me about placements, I'd reply.. "Oh, I'm so comfortable losing."

I think he's not as comfortable with that script.

I told him, "placements don't matter", and he doesn't believe that I believe that.

I think I believe it 30% which is way higher then before!!! Next comp is coming up soon, I better place top 3! *cough* Not that placements matter.

FINE. Placements don't matter but it would be nice if I place top 3. Thank you.

Two things can be true at the same time.
There are 3 very different versions of what matters I hear from studio managers.

Version 1, during conversations on my advancement. "We have rules and if you want to dance here, you have to accept them. You must place first in at least for comps in a final or top three with a semifinal."

Version 2, during lessons: "Let's address how your dancing looks like, because ultimately that's what matters, not how you place and not how you feel on the floor."

Version 3, during the comp before I dance: "Just go out there and have fun!"

LOL.

If you ask me, how I feel matters the most, how I look on the floor matters second, and how I place matters third. Placements DO matter but being happy on the floor matters more AND there should be some flexibility with placements. I like to use Winnicott's term for mothering applied to dancing: perfection is unnecessary, one should be 'good enough' the advance, that's all.
 
when i switched over to my current pro, he made it clear placements do matter to him. It's not the end-all be-all, but they matter. which i actually like. it may not be kosher to say, but placements do matter to me. the improvement in dancing also matters.

we are way off topic for lesson thread, tho, if we continue, we should move this to a new thread.
It's not a bad thing to say. It does matter. It's not a good feeling to attend an event, and place last in every single event entered.
 
It's so funny, both of our teachers talk about how placements don't matter. But in actuality, it does matter to them.
What mattered to my pro and to me is that I belonged in the level he put me in. I was competitive in his eyes, and he believed I would be competitive in the eyes of the judges. It's no fun dancing against those you obviously have no business competing against. If I belong there, then the placements are gonna be what they're gonna be. I've been last in my group, and I didn't stink, and I wasn't dancing up to a higher level. It's just that on that day at that time, I was judged last. So be it.
 
Ah ha! I guessed the correct plot line ;-)

It's so funny, both of our teachers talk about how placements don't matter. But in actuality, it does matter to them.

In my lessons, in the past I'm full of over confident bravo and talk about crushing my enemies. But lately I've been trying a different approach. When Pro teases me about placements, I'd reply.. "Oh, I'm so comfortable losing."

I think he's not as comfortable with that script.

I told him, "placements don't matter", and he doesn't believe that I believe that.

I think I believe it 30% which is way higher then before!!! Next comp is coming up soon, I better place top 3! *cough* Not that placements matter.

FINE. Placements don't matter but it would be nice if I place top 3. Thank you.

Two things can be true at the same time.
There are 3 very different versions of what matters I hear from studio managers.

Version 1, during conversations on my advancement. "We have rules and if you want to dance here, you have to accept them. You must place first in at least for comps in a final or top three with a semifinal."

Version 2, during lessons: "Let's address how your dancing looks like, because ultimately that's what matters, not how you place and not how you feel on the floor."

Version 3, during the comp before I dance: "Just go out there and have fun!"

LOL.

If you ask me, how I feel matters the most, how I look on the floor matters second, and how I place matters third. Placements DO matter but being happy on the floor matters more AND there should be some flexibility with placements. I like to use Winnicott's term for mothering applied to dancing: perfection is unnecessary, one should be 'good enough' the advance, that's all.
 
But I challenged him, “are you waiting to teach me Silver until you think I will be competitively successful in Silver?” He hedged but eventually admitted yes, that’s sorta kinda his approach.
How can he expect you to be be competitively successful in Silver before you've even been taught Silver? I'd think it would work better if the learning came before the competing, rather than after.

Also, if you go to OSB again, NDCA rules actually require you to move in some way rather than repeating the categories you won last year - you won some categories, if I recall? - though you could move to a lower age category instead. You can always ignore the rules, of course, but there's always the outside chance that a competitor notices the infraction and protests to the chairman.
 
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not gonna lie, it does feel taboo to say on here that placements matter.

When i started with my current pro, he was talking about his previous student (18 yr old that turned pro and is now winning ALL the things as a pro smooth dancer - @lucia_l you may be familiar with her *wink*) and how she placed 3rd at a comp when he expected higher - there was a lot more discussion and context, obv - and i was on board with his thoughts on why he was frustrated by it.

But he's also very aware that the judges and politics can impact the placements - and so it's not everything to him. and he doesn't focus on that in place of looking at improved dancing, if that makes sense?
 

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