Possible "moves" after the Follower's Cross

[Mladenac]

check 10th and 28th seconds.

It leading into a cross and then take a mild step back with left unchanging weight, go on right foot with slight body rotation and go forward.
Very nice and not so easy at it seems
It was intermediate class but he can try it without dynamics.
That is beginners class practice to feel changing the weight.
I described it already.

 

[Ampster]

Opinion seems divided on this. I was taught that the follower should (and would) always transfer wt immediately she is placed in the cross, and it had never occured to me that there was an alternative. My first teacher used the Basic Eight as a foundation movement, so I guess that is reasonable in that context, but doesn't this get almost hard-wired in followers' minds. I don't think I would have the skill to give the contrary signal not to change. What would it be?

IMHO- Every move/weight change in AT comes from a lead. It should not be automatic. That stifles improvisation and creativity. To keep her from changing weight you hold her (lead her) in place and stop her from shifting to the crossed foot if you are going to lead something that necessitates her keeping her weight on the back foot.

Leading is a practiced skill and it takes awhile to learn to read your follow. Be patient.

The beauty of AT is its opportunity for improvisation while dancing stuck to each other (I dance exclusively in close embrace), wherein at any point in any movement, you can lead something else, something new, but you have to lead it, and make it seamlessly flow.

 

[v22TTC]

Opinion seems divided on this. I was taught that the follower should (and would) always transfer wt immediately she is placed in the cross, and it had never occured to me that there was an alternative. My first teacher used the Basic Eight as a foundation movement, so I guess that is reasonable in that context, but doesn't this get almost hard-wired in followers' minds. I don't think I would have the skill to give the contrary signal not to change. What would it be?

It's a hoary ol' subject, but I've found that the cross being taught the way it usually is (round here) is the work of the Devil - in theory, it's all led, but in reality (usually), followers will only recognise the cross lead if it's preceded by the 8CB steps (however well led), will auto-change weight and will then be confused if you don't step with your LF, or lead a forward ocho (if they're at a higher level)... nightmare!

In honesty, I've resigned myself to only leading them the 8CB way, or not at all (except for with good followers, taught differently, out of town)... though extending the pause can be enough to stop them anticipating once there (after the auto-weight change).

Some see it as cheating, but I'll take what I can when dancing with such (mis-taught) followers - you can take a deep breath and slightly lift your chest as you lead the cross (communicating lightness), then breathe out and sink your weight a tad to indicate the weight change invitation (or don't, if you don't want her to). Shouldn't need to, but that's not my fault....

EDIT: To clarify, she 'should' change weight in response to your step/weight change only - a normal, definite step/weight change should be all you need; and if you don't want her to weight change, but you want to yourself, then you should be able to do so without her feeling it, and thus responding. Again, in theory....

 

[Mladenac]

Yes, some ladies are perfect followers and you can be sure that you led sth and can realize what you led. They are dream followers.
I know a lady that she moves her hand as much as you do.
Dancing with her is like game of puppeteer and a puppet.

And there are others who do some things automatically.
You accept that and adjust to her to have pleasant dance.

But everything must be led, especially wight change.
I exclude adornos that doesn't influence followers balance.

 

[tangomonkey]

I was taught that the follower should (and would) always transfer wt immediately she is placed in the cross...

And:

...in theory, it's all led, but in reality (usually), followers will only recognise the cross lead if it's preceded by the 8CB steps (however well led), will auto-change weight and will then be confused if you don't step with your LF, or lead a forward ocho (if they're at a higher level)...

That's been my experience too.

...be careful how you will do your weight transfer and how the follower feels it...Cross is kind of lock, so you can lock/unlock i.e. transfer weight, and play with it unlocked one (with no transferring weight)...
while transferring the weight on left you unlock the right leg...So you can go: to her right, your back, her to your right side...when transfer weight does not occur you can: - after stop go from her left side

And:

...the follower has 2 feet in the cross: the front, and the rear one. But they are differently weighted. And the weight shift is part of YOUR lead ! So if you lead a wheight change, the rear one is free, if not, the front one is still free for the next move. In which direction this movement will go, is only up to you...

And:

IMHO- Every move/weight change in AT comes from a lead. It should not be automatic... To keep her from changing weight you hold her (lead her) in place and stop her from shifting to the crossed foot if you are going to lead something that necessitates her keeping her weight on the back foot.

Never thought about trying to keep her weight on the back foot after the cross. The cross is a collecting movement and weight should not transfer to the crossed foot unless that is led. Seems blatantly obvious now! Thanks. Will work on this and all the possibilities this "revelation" opens up.

My goal was "To help remove/reduce the "basic 8" from my brain". This will do it - at least the cross leading to the so called "close" or "resolution" part.

 

[Lilly_of_the_valley]

If you wish to remove/reduce the "basic 8" from your brain, how about not leading the cross at all to begin with?

 

[tangomonkey]

If you wish to remove/reduce the "basic 8" from your brain, how about not leading the cross at all to begin with?

Fair enough! But I enjoy stepping outside partner and leading the cross. I just don't want the "close/resolution" to follow automatically.

 

[AndaBien]

Fair enough! But I enjoy stepping outside partner and leading the cross. I just don't want the "close/resolution" to follow automatically.

I suggest that in your mind you designate two or three alternative steps, not close/resolution, and always do one of them instead. For example; side-step, ocho-cortado, continuous-walking.

 

[v22TTC]

My goal was "To help remove/reduce the "basic 8" from my brain". This will do it - at least the cross leading to the so called "close" or "resolution" part.

[My bold]

Not many more-worthy goals in TA - best of luck!

...I enjoy stepping outside partner and leading the cross.

It's largely a mental/attitude thing - it's possible to do this very thing and resolutely not be having anything to do with the 8CB... if you know what I mean... if you begin each of those steps thinking 'I am choosing to...' (whilst being aware of the other options that you're not, therefore, choosing).

 

[dchester]

Fair enough! But I enjoy stepping outside partner and leading the cross. I just don't want the "close/resolution" to follow automatically.

Then don't lead the resolution. Just practice doing anything else after walking to the cross.

It's not that difficult to come up with many other options. You can keep walking, do rock steps, do a turn (in either direction), go right back into cross system, do ochos, pause, etc. You have all of the same option that are available after taking a forward step (i. e. pretty much everything). Go to a practica and work on it. It really will come quickly.

 

[Lilly_of_the_valley]

In my opinion what is well worth removing from the brain is thinking in terms of patterns. Replacing one pattern by a couple of others will not take you far from the "8 count basic" mentality.

 

[tangomonkey]

Then don't lead the resolution. Just practice doing anything else after walking to the cross.

Yup, that's what I'll be doing.

It's not that difficult to come up with many other options. You can keep walking, do rock steps, do a turn (in either direction), go right back into cross system, do ochos, pause, etc. You have all of the same option that are available after taking a forward step (i. e. pretty much everything). Go to a practica and work on it. It really will come quickly.

And if I keep the weight on the follower's back foot at the cross it opens up options I hadn't considered before.

 

[tangomonkey]

In my opinion what is well worth removing from the brain is thinking in terms of patterns. Replacing one pattern by a couple of others will not take you far from the "8 count basic" mentality.

Agreed. I'm not looking to substitute another pattern or two, hence my request for possibilities (plural, ie. more than one or two). I'm just trying to follow advice given me in my first post to this forum ("My Incompetence"): break down the basic 8 and the many sequences in my muscle memory into their constituent "steps" and work out other ways to move.

My whole goal is to do exactly as you say, remove thinking in terms of patterns. Easier said than done, for a new leader especially. To get there I need to consciously work through the options from any given position to something else. One day there will be no thinking, just doing. But not yet...

 

[Mladenac]

concentrate how she steps, how does she project back foot and how it affect her posture i.e. is she on time and how does she mark the step.
where is her weight and how she feels you lead the weight.

When you master that, try my exercises

 

[bastet]

You might, at a practica, do some exercises where when you lead a cross, let the follower verbally tell you the next step to lead...so you have no idea then...it's a fun game to do these sort of things and they tend to help the leader not think too much about patterns.