Possible "moves" after the Follower's Cross

[v22TTC]

Tangomonkey: No, your explanation was sound - I knew exactly what you meant, but was confused about the direction of rotation as you step left.

Having (just) worked through both rotation directions, don't you end up with something like this (assuming that you're walking directly into the LoD)?:-

Right (CW): Both partners are square to the LoD (LoD going through the centre of their chests, with shoulder-shoulder axes perpendicular to the LoD);

Left (CCW): Both partners are oblique to the LoD, facing to the left of it... so it'd be handy for going round a corner (CCW), say.

I've never come across the left rotation method before, and am a really nuts-and-bolts learner [but not doer], so I'd really appreciate hearing your thoughts about this.

 

[Peaches]

Eh, I don't see your weight post-cross weight change to your right foot as being an indication to change my weight to the crossed foot. (I realize that's clear as mud, but I can't think of how to make it clearer.)

I don't pay attention to the man's weight changes. I pay attention to the weight changes he asks me to do. You could do a flippin' jig while I'm crossing, and if you don't ask me to change my weight it wouldn't matter to me. Besides, it's kind of changing weight in opposite directions, in a way. You switch to your right (to weight the right foot), but you're thinking that I'm going to switch to my right as well (onto the left foot, which is crossed, and therefore to my right, which is on your left)? That just doesn't seem to make sense. As I sit here in the kitchen thinking in through instead of trying it. If you keep moving, then it's a definite weight change. Beyond that...individual circumstances.

I think. I'm not a leader.

 

[bordertangoman]

I think. .....therefore... I'm not a leader.

I don't pay attention to the man's weight changes. I pay attention to the weight changes he asks me to do. You could do a flippin' jig while I'm crossing, and if you don't ask me to change my weight it wouldn't matter to me. Besides, it's kind of changing weight in opposite directions, in a way. You switch to your right (to weight the right foot), but you're thinking that I'm going to switch to my right as well (onto the left foot, which is crossed, and therefore to my right, which is on your left)? That just doesn't seem to make sense. As I sit here in the kitchen thinking in through instead of trying it. If you keep moving, then it's a definite weight change. Beyond that...individual circumstances..

quite right..but one must make assumptions about what the follower will do; most will do a weight change if led into a cross position therefore you have to lead her to deliberatley not put her weight down; same as you would do for a calesita; something in your lead must say stay up eg if its lead as a rebote/rebound then her weight goes further back and she cant get her weight onto her crossed foot...

bleedin' hobvious innit, eh Bailey?

 

[AndaBien]

I think of the crusada as a step. And, I think when a follower is lead to take any step she should take a complete step, full change of weight and collect on the standing foot. Unless, she is lead to do otherwise.

I have, occasionally, lead a woman toward a crusada but then changed the lead before she actually crossed, but that was just in a moment of playing with her mind.

 

[v22TTC]

Eh, I don't see your weight post-cross weight change to your right foot as being an indication to change my weight to the crossed foot. (I realize that's clear as mud, but I can't think of how to make it clearer.)

I don't pay attention to the man's weight changes. I pay attention to the weight changes he asks me to do. You could do a flippin' jig while I'm crossing, and if you don't ask me to change my weight it wouldn't matter to me. Besides, it's kind of changing weight in opposite directions, in a way. You switch to your right (to weight the right foot), but you're thinking that I'm going to switch to my right as well (onto the left foot, which is crossed, and therefore to my right, which is on your left)? That just doesn't seem to make sense. As I sit here in the kitchen thinking in through instead of trying it. If you keep moving, then it's a definite weight change. Beyond that...individual circumstances.

I think. I'm not a leader.

[Using 'my' and 'your' for convenience...]

The way we do it round here, is that your left foot only goes back into the crossed position in response to my right foot moving forward (as I collect), accompanied by a little left rotation, since my foot is moving into that foot's space.

If I glide forward and round then you'll glide your foot back and not transfer weight; if I give it some 'stepping into the floor', then you'll weight the foot.

I don't think that the relative directions matter too much, in view of the 'weight on alternating feet rule' - you've just stepped back with right, if another weight change is led then it 'should' be left, wherever it is in relation to the other foot.

 

[tangomonkey]

[Using 'my' and 'your' for convenience...]

The way we do it round here, is that your left foot only goes back into the crossed position in response to my right foot moving forward (as I collect), accompanied by a little left rotation, since my foot is moving into that foot's space.

If I glide forward and round then you'll glide your foot back and not transfer weight; if I give it some 'stepping into the floor', then you'll weight the foot.

I don't think that the relative directions matter too much, in view of the 'weight on alternating feet rule' - you've just stepped back with right, if another weight change is led then it 'should' be left, wherever it is in relation to the other foot.

All three points are almost exactly what I intended, but obviously poorly described. I think though, that the indication to cross happens somewhere during my left rotation and her cross is completed as/when I collect my right foot. Minor difference...

 

[bordertangoman]

I think of the crusada as a step. And, I think when a follower is lead to take any step she should take a complete step, full change of weight and collect on the standing foot. Unless, she is lead to do otherwise.

I have, occasionally, lead a woman toward a crusada but then changed the lead before she actually crossed, but that was just in a moment of playing with her mind.

"That is not logical" Spock

If you step normally forward; then the(her) free leg stays free ie with no weight, unless you lead a weight change; so if you lead her to collect in the cross position the same should be true, logically.

 

[dchester]

I think of the crusada as a step. And, I think when a follower is lead to take any step she should take a complete step, full change of weight and collect on the standing foot. Unless, she is lead to do otherwise.

Finally, back to the world I live in. It's a step, so there is a weight change.

 

[tangomonkey]

I think of the crusada as a step. And, I think when a follower is lead to take any step she should take a complete step, full change of weight and collect on the standing foot. Unless, she is lead to do otherwise.

Finally, back to the world I live in. It's a step, so there is a weight change.

In my mind the follower's back step is the step, with full weight transfer. The left cross over is a collection until/unless weight is transferred to it ("collect on the standing foot"). Should she automatically transfer her weight to the crossed foot at the time it is crossed - without a lead to do so? That has been my experience with most (all?) followers. I am simply attempting to find alternatives, and following the assumption that nothing happens unless it is led.

 

[dchester]

In my mind the follower's back step is the step, with full weight transfer. The left cross over is a collection until/unless weight is transferred to it ("collect on the standing foot"). Should she automatically transfer her weight to the crossed foot at the time it is crossed - without a lead to do so? That has been my experience with most (all?) followers. I am simply attempting to find alternatives, and following the assumption that nothing happens unless it is led.

IMO, it's a step, so when you lead a step, part of that is the weight change. If you don't want a weight change to occur, you are leading something other than a step.

Certainly (with practice) you can lead the followers free leg/foot to move around, draw circles, whatever, but that's not a step.

I thought the question was, what to do after she crosses, which to me means once the weight change occurs and she is on her left foot.

 

[tangomonkey]

I thought the question was, what to do after she crosses, which to me means once the weight change occurs and she is on her left foot.

Yup, that's the topic of this thread. I had previously only thought about how to move, assuming the the followers weight on the forward foot. The idea that that is not necessarily so got us off into a discussion of the cross itself.

 

[ant]

IMO, it's a step, so when you lead a step, part of that is the weight change. If you don't want a weight change to occur, you are leading something other than a step.

I am not sure that you can say it is a step.

Certainly the first part of the lead into the cross is for the folllower to believe she should step but once that process has started the leader will either straighten his disociation (if on the outside) or bring in more forward movement though and disociate his body (if in a linear position). In either case he is then indicating to the follower that he is no longer leading a step. At which point there will need to be a furhter indication in the lead for her to make a weight change.

 

[dchester]

I am not sure that you can say it is a step.

Certainly the first part of the lead into the cross is for the folllower to believe she should step but once that process has started the leader will either straighten his disociation (if on the outside) or bring in more forward movement though and disociate his body (if in a linear position). In either case he is then indicating to the follower that he is no longer leading a step. At which point there will need to be a furhter indication in the lead for her to make a weight change.

In case I am confused about what we were talking about, I thought it was step 5 of the 8 count basic (the cross, AKA cruzada). It is a step, thus there is a weight change.

http://www.tejastango.com/terminology.html#E

To the OP, note that this does say (at step 5) that many variations for the lady begin from this position.

 

[ant]

In case I am confused about what we were talking about, I thought it was step 5 of the 8 count basic (the cross, AKA cruzada). It is a step, thus there is a weight change.

http://www.tejastango.com/terminology.html#E

To the OP, note that this does say (at step 5) that many variations for the lady begin from this position.

My reading of the OP is not the same as yours.

To help remove/reduce the "basic 8" from my brain, something I've been working on are the possibilities for movement after the followers's cross.

I think what you are saying is that the cross completes when the there is a weight change after the cross and I suppose I am saying that the cross is before the weight change (although I am prepared to be corrected on that score).
Whoever is right on the above point however does not change my view on your premis that the cross is a step. As I have stated above the lead starts that way but once you induce the crossing over of the followers left leg it stops being a step and so the lead requires something further for a weight change to occur at the cross.

 

[tangomonkey]

In case I am confused about what we were talking about, I thought it was step 5 of the 8 count basic (the cross, AKA cruzada). It is a step, thus there is a weight change.


To the OP, note that this does say (at step 5) that many variations for the lady begin from this position.

I was trying to avoid thinking in terms of the basic 8 and the automatic "close/resolution". Naturally, if the intention is to step forward out of the cross (leading the follower to back step with the right) then a weight transfer to the follower's crossed left foot has to have taken place, otherwise she risks falling over backwards. I think we are splitting hairs - it seems to depend on the leader's intention after the cross; that will determine if he transfers her weight to the front foot or not. (If he is able to lead either)