Possible "moves" after the Follower's Cross

[bastet]

Rather than start a new thread, I thought I'd ask this here:-

David Turner, in his 'A Passion for Tango', mentions that (particularly when things are getting too serious) he sometimes does an underarm turn from the cross... either a 360 (using the great word 'twizzle'), or a 180 where he takes her left hand as it leaves his shoulder and into a cuddle hold.

Now I know that this will temporarily break the embrace, and is pretty Salsa... but I found that women love turns/spins (and the cuddle hold, to a lesser extent)... so if it's all about her?...

How would this kind of malarkey go down generally, do you think? Obviously, if it's packed and the dance is all slow, close and snuggly, you wouldn't dream of it, but otherwise? Is it heresy?

I'd really appreciate people's thoughts.

If i was in apilado and someone did that, I probably wouldn't like it.

If I'm dancing open, or somewhere near that, it would depend on the music and the capability of the leader. I tend to enjoy that sort of thing more with electronic music.

 

[tangogo-dancer]

David Turner, in his 'A Passion for Tango', mentions that (particularly when things are getting too serious) he sometimes does an underarm turn from the cross... either a 360 (using the great word 'twizzle'), or a 180 where he takes her left hand as it leaves his shoulder and into a cuddle hold.

Hmm, I don't get it :/ Would you happen to have a video maybe?

 

[Peaches]

Rather than start a new thread, I thought I'd ask this here:-

David Turner, in his 'A Passion for Tango', mentions that (particularly when things are getting too serious) he sometimes does an underarm turn from the cross... either a 360 (using the great word 'twizzle'), or a 180 where he takes her left hand as it leaves his shoulder and into a cuddle hold.

Now I know that this will temporarily break the embrace, and is pretty Salsa... but I found that women love turns/spins (and the cuddle hold, to a lesser extent)... so if it's all about her?...

How would this kind of malarkey go down generally, do you think? Obviously, if it's packed and the dance is all slow, close and snuggly, you wouldn't dream of it, but otherwise? Is it heresy?

I'd really appreciate people's thoughts.

I'll agree with Bastet on this one. If things are traditional, it would tick me off. If it's electronic or alternative music, and we're dancing open...and the vibe is right...go for it! (Assuming adequate floorspace and whatnot...which does happen.) The right leader, the right mood, and it's all just fun.

 

[v22TTC]

Hmm, I don't get it :/ Would you happen to have a video maybe?

Sorry - the only vids I know that demonstrate this would be Salsa ones... and I probably still can't post links anyway....

In words, you'd lift the follower's right hand over her head and 'twizzle' her round. For the cuddle hold, you'd twizzle her CCW, take her left hand as it leaves your shoulder, but keep twizzling until her back's to your front (you're facing the same way), with her left arm across her middle-front, with you still holding that hand (she's turned 180 degrees).

I have no idea about what he means by 'too serious' though... maybe the follower's nibbling his ear: "Off you go!" <Twizzle!>

Like I said, I wouldn't dream of this at a proper milonga... but there aren't any round here - if it's to be dancing to Flamenco-Salsa-('Tango'), or pop, with patternbots for four out of five dances, then I might as well have some fun too... might help to snap the followers out of pattern-mode....

One of the main reasons that I asked was that I was just so surprised to read this in that book (didn't seem his style), and wondered if it was relatively common out there in the wider, non-traditional, Tango-world?

As to the OP, it'd certainly break free from 8CB-programming....

 

[tangomonkey]

As to the OP, it'd certainly break free from 8CB-programming....

Like bastet and Peaches said: not appropriate in close embrace, but OK in open with electronic music. Which I don't dance to - not my thing...

I can happily say that the 8CB "auto programming" is pretty much gone.

 

[ant]

Like bastet and Peaches said: not appropriate in close embrace, but OK in open with electronic music. Which I don't dance to - not my thing...

I can happily say that the 8CB "auto programming" is pretty much gone.

Hi tangomonkey

I attended weekend of workshops with Detlef and Melina one of which was about The Cross and their ideas on exits therefrom.

The maths go something like this

In their opinion there are 5 possible exits from The Cross:

1 Back step of follower (forward for the leader)
2 Forward ocho
3 Backward ocho
4 90 degree pivot and forward step left
5 90 degree pivot and forward step right

these steps can be done by the lead or the follow so that gives 25 combinations

This can be done with or without leading a weight change when the follower does her Cross. This then doubles up the 25 combinations above.

Then there are 4 possible foot combinations going into the cross

1+2 leaders left foot weight bearing in parrallel and cross system
3+4 leaders right foot weight bearing in parrallel and cross system

Nobody was sure whether you could then multiply up the 25x2 combinations above as some of the foot combinations may not allow all 5 of the exits listed above.

However if they could that would have given 200 possible entry and exit combinations.

 

[Mosca Negra]

It hurts me to read a message like the one Ant posted. How can anyone suggest the reduction of Argentine Tango to 5 possible exits from the cross and 200 possible entry and exit combinations? My goodness. Are they issuing rule books at milongas now?

 

[tangomonkey]

It hurts me to read a message like the one Ant posted. How can anyone suggest the reduction of Argentine Tango to 5 possible exits from the cross and 200 possible entry and exit combinations? My goodness. Are they issuing rule books at milongas now?

Maybe ask Naveira, Salas, Frumboli, et. al. I understand this was exactly the type of analysis they did.

Not a process I would personally like to go through for every tango step/figure/movement, but it could be an interesting exercise... maybe I'll visualize all the cross combinations. or NOT :nope:

 

[Mladenac]

Maybe ask Naveira, Salas, Frumboli, et. al. I understand this was exactly the type of analysis they did.

AFAIK They started to analyze the structure of the movement.

To you may step forward, but you can do it in 1000 ways.
It's still step forward more indefinite than definite.

You can also lead front linear boleo and exit you on either sides,
or lead front linear boleo into back boleo.

 

[UKDancer]

This sort of analysis isn't personally helpful, but it is similar in approach to Paz/Hart's view (Gotta Tango) that there is a very limited range of movement options from which all tango is constructed.

The obvious fact is that as you combine those basic elements in different ways, you soon reach a huge number of possible outcomes, four or five steps from your start, and the opportunities just keep multiplying as you continue. Tango is thus very simple, in essence, and yet rich and varied in fact.

 

[bordertangoman]

Hi tangomonkey

I attended weekend of workshops with Detlef and Melina one of which was about The Cross and their ideas on exits therefrom.

The maths go something like this

In their opinion there are 5 possible exits from The Cross:

1 Back step of follower (forward for the leader)
2 Forward ocho
3 Backward ocho
4 90 degree pivot and forward step left
5 90 degree pivot and forward step right

these steps can be done by the lead or the follow so that gives 25 combinations
This can be done with or without leading a weight change when the follower does her Cross. This then doubles up the 25 combinations above.

Then there are 4 possible foot combinations going into the cross

1+2 leaders left foot weight bearing in parrallel and cross system
3+4 leaders right foot weight bearing in parrallel and cross system

Nobody was sure whether you could then multiply up the 25x2 combinations above as some of the foot combinations may not allow all 5 of the exits listed above.

However if they could that would have given 200 possible entry and exit combinations.

the bold text; this isnt logical; you can lead the follower into these 5 exits

then you have the leaders options; most of which are conditional on which leg you are standing on; so you cant necessarily do 25 x 25, and you have a couple of options to lead her around you, without stepping eg giro to man's left (CCW)

 

[Peaches]

Are they issuing rule books at milongas now?

You might be surprised. It would certainly seem to be the case, given some of the posting around here...

 

[ant]

It hurts me to read a message like the one Ant posted. How can anyone suggest the reduction of Argentine Tango to 5 possible exits from the cross and 200 possible entry and exit combinations? My goodness. Are they issuing rule books at milongas now?

Your post could be taken as quite sad, if you think that is all that was discussed and taught by quality teachers.

The first part of my post stated that the maths, (as distinct from the dancing), went along the lines stated. Many other considerations and options were also discussed. They were trying to show how easy it would be for us to build up different exercises when we were pratising entries into and exits (which is what I understood was asked for in the OP) from the cross and that took all of about 1 minute in a 11/2 hour workshop.

 

[ant]

the bold text; this isnt logical; you can lead the follower into these 5 exits

then you have the leaders options; most of which are conditional on which leg you are standing on; so you cant necessarily do 25 x 25,

I did not use 25x25 but 25x2. The two representing whether or not you led the follower to transfer her weight one she crossed.

and you have a couple of options to lead her around you, without stepping eg giro to man's left (CCW)

D+M were talking about first step options only at this point. They also explained a number of 2 and 3 step options coming out of the cross, including the Giro.

 

[tangomonkey]

AFAIK They started to analyze the structure of the movement.

I should not have used the word "exactly" since in all honesty I don't know exactly what they did. Quote: "We (Naveira and Salas) would get together and try crazy things, to find the underlying structural possibilities. I remember one night we discovered that there were 98 possible ganchos in the turn!" Sounds like they were doing the kind of thing Ant posted - but maybe I don't get what "underlying structural possibilities" means.