DanceMentor
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Random Secrets of Standard
- Thread starter Chris Stratton
- Start date
Nik
Member
madmaximus said:
Because one side is always shorter than the other. You are constantly working your back, much more than in standard.
Actually, in standard, you "sides" are mostly equal because all your movement and shape comes from the knees and hips. Your back never starts the movement in standard, and "most" of the time it is very stiff and straight. In some things ofcoarse it changes and contracts but if right now I dance the first 30 seconds of my foxtrot, there might only be 1 or 2 places where my back would be shorter on one side than the other.
I don't know the skill level or knowledge of the person who posted that statement but I would not consider it to be very accurate, and if you are using your back in Standard then you are doing something wrong. I think what he meant by that statement is the actual steps are symetrical. Like the new yorks or hand to hand, the steps are just mirrored from one side to the next.
Chris Stratton
New Member
Nik said:
Yes, that is what was meant - the point of the comparison is that standard material is not very symmetric at all - even when the figure names are symmetric (natural vs reverse turn) the technique with which they are executed has to be different.
Obviously the body position in just about any figure of any partner dance is going to by assymetric. The question is if an action on one side has a mirror image possibility on the other, or if you have to do things differently to create the closest corresponding action on the other side.
Josh, I get told "close your ribcage" frequently. To get the ribcage down, sternum up posture, it helps me to think of elongating through the center of of my body (mid-way between back and front) and pushing up on the sternum from inside while keeping the ribs down. Before dancing, I tended to think about stretching or standing up straight through manipulating the surface of my body (like raising the front of the rib cage to flatten the back), but now I'm trying to get the feeling of everything coming from the actual center of my torso.
Chris Stratton
New Member
The Outside Edge of the Toe is Weak so we avoid putting our weight there, and support from the inside edge instead.
Going backwards with CBM you toe the foot in, so that it is the outside edge of the toe that first finds a spot on the floor - however as your weight arrives on the foot, it goes directly through to the stronger inside edge of the toe/ball of foot.
Stepping forwards in CBMP, your weight leaves from the inside edge of the foot, not the outside - despite the fact that the motion may be more towards the outside (especially if it's across in CBMP). Applying this to the contra check suggests that the back foot should be pointed at the front foot (ie, feet not parallel, instead all four feet form one line, front feet angled, back feet pointing along the line).
(I'd been gradually figuring this out for travelling steps, but only picked up the advantage for stability in the contra check when I dropped in to a group class at my old studio yesterday - the hallmark of a good class is that there's more information offered than one can initially process, meaning if you go back and retake it with comparatively little to 'worry about' you notice things that were previously hidden by larger concerns)
(There is no corresponding issue when dancing onto or off the heel - the heel should be strong on both sides)
Going backwards with CBM you toe the foot in, so that it is the outside edge of the toe that first finds a spot on the floor - however as your weight arrives on the foot, it goes directly through to the stronger inside edge of the toe/ball of foot.
Stepping forwards in CBMP, your weight leaves from the inside edge of the foot, not the outside - despite the fact that the motion may be more towards the outside (especially if it's across in CBMP). Applying this to the contra check suggests that the back foot should be pointed at the front foot (ie, feet not parallel, instead all four feet form one line, front feet angled, back feet pointing along the line).
(I'd been gradually figuring this out for travelling steps, but only picked up the advantage for stability in the contra check when I dropped in to a group class at my old studio yesterday - the hallmark of a good class is that there's more information offered than one can initially process, meaning if you go back and retake it with comparatively little to 'worry about' you notice things that were previously hidden by larger concerns)
(There is no corresponding issue when dancing onto or off the heel - the heel should be strong on both sides)
Laura
Well-Known Member
I will add something to Chris's descriptions for those of us who are overly flexible and/or habitually turned out through the various leg-and-foot related joints: sometimes it's not just enough to "toe in," you need to actually turn the whole leg in from the hip joint (this is true for me on the ladies' part of the contra check). This is especially true if you go around partly turned out all the time anyway (like, from doing a lot of ballet).
Chris Stratton
New Member
To add to what Laura just said, it's my understanding that ballet turnout is to be created from the hip, so that the knee if bent would bend over the foot. This would naturally suggest that turn in also be created from the hip joint.
However, standard ballroom does not quite follow the ballet rule. Instead, we tend to keep our knees slightly inside the foot. I think that means that on a backwards step, there'd actually be more turn-in of the thigh than there is of the foot - after all, CBM is about turning the hips not the feet, and having the foot less turned in is compatible with putting the weight more to its stronger inside edge.
However, standard ballroom does not quite follow the ballet rule. Instead, we tend to keep our knees slightly inside the foot. I think that means that on a backwards step, there'd actually be more turn-in of the thigh than there is of the foot - after all, CBM is about turning the hips not the feet, and having the foot less turned in is compatible with putting the weight more to its stronger inside edge.
Chris Stratton
New Member
The movement of the man's body leads his partner's body, her moving leg/foot, and his own moving leg/foot too.
If the man moves his foot directly the lady may not be able to feel and match precisely what he is doing. But if his foot moves as a consequence of his body moving, and her foott moves as a consequence of her body moving, and the motion of her body partners the motion of his, then her foot will also partner his.
A common reason for "tricky" figures such as fallaways, side locks, etc failing is that the man fails to maintain the direction of travel in his body, but purposefully positions his feet in the desired places anyway. Since his body did not move in a way that would naturally lead his own feet into position, it did not move in a way that would comfortably lead his partner to where he wants her either - if she knows what he's trying to do they might force it to work, but it won't flow. Establish and preserve appropriate directions of movement, and the moving feet will take care of themselves.
(This is one of the reason why you shouldn't generally curve the travel of a step - your free leg would naturally swing in a straight line rather than following a curve in your body's travel.)
If the man moves his foot directly the lady may not be able to feel and match precisely what he is doing. But if his foot moves as a consequence of his body moving, and her foott moves as a consequence of her body moving, and the motion of her body partners the motion of his, then her foot will also partner his.
A common reason for "tricky" figures such as fallaways, side locks, etc failing is that the man fails to maintain the direction of travel in his body, but purposefully positions his feet in the desired places anyway. Since his body did not move in a way that would naturally lead his own feet into position, it did not move in a way that would comfortably lead his partner to where he wants her either - if she knows what he's trying to do they might force it to work, but it won't flow. Establish and preserve appropriate directions of movement, and the moving feet will take care of themselves.
(This is one of the reason why you shouldn't generally curve the travel of a step - your free leg would naturally swing in a straight line rather than following a curve in your body's travel.)
Chris Stratton
New Member
knock knees good*, bowlegs bad
(*but only slightly when the feet are together - really it's when the feet are apart)
(*but only slightly when the feet are together - really it's when the feet are apart)
Chris Stratton
New Member
I don't know how active the back should be in latin, but I do think there's some merit in what Nik seems to be saying about the back not being active (as in changing shape to drive movements) in standard - instead the back is riding on activity created in the feet, legs, pelvis. And I don't think this inactivity precludes holding a consistent asymetric stretch (which Larinda as a follower is probably more aware of than Nik as a leader would be)
To the extent that there should be activity (change) in the torso, I think it should be primarily changes in rotational stretch, rather than changes in vertical stretch. A lot of that will come from the action of the feet and legs, but the component that does come from body core muscles would be the abdominals rather than back muscles.
Specific question: does the settling into hip phase of a rumba walk properly include the kind of side shortening that is verboten in standard? Or has it just been too long since I put any serious attention into understanding latin?
To the extent that there should be activity (change) in the torso, I think it should be primarily changes in rotational stretch, rather than changes in vertical stretch. A lot of that will come from the action of the feet and legs, but the component that does come from body core muscles would be the abdominals rather than back muscles.
Specific question: does the settling into hip phase of a rumba walk properly include the kind of side shortening that is verboten in standard? Or has it just been too long since I put any serious attention into understanding latin?
Chris Stratton
New Member
I can't say with authority that there should be nothing going on in the torso, but I can with confidence say that it would be good advice for most standard dancers to develop their activity towards including the hips, and have fewer changes above them.
Watch for example the back feather, and see how many leaders try to whisk the lady outside partner from their ribcage by shortening their left side/raising their right, rather than by inviting her back by clearing their right hip. This is particularly notable in practice wear, since tailsuits do a decent job of hiding it.
To distill this down - I'd say that the hips should be as or more inclined than the topline - if there's activity in the torso, it would actually be to isolate the topline from some of the necessary motion of the hips, rather than to add to it.
Watch for example the back feather, and see how many leaders try to whisk the lady outside partner from their ribcage by shortening their left side/raising their right, rather than by inviting her back by clearing their right hip. This is particularly notable in practice wear, since tailsuits do a decent job of hiding it.
To distill this down - I'd say that the hips should be as or more inclined than the topline - if there's activity in the torso, it would actually be to isolate the topline from some of the necessary motion of the hips, rather than to add to it.
Chris Stratton
New Member
Larinda McRaven said:
Perhaps - but this is a second level version of it. The primary part is that the hip has to move - it would be perfectly reasonable to clear the hip and keep the torso fixed in relation to the hip, and completely unacceptable to try to dance the figure from the ribcage with the hip unmoving - which is in fact a fairly common fault, orders of magnitude more widespread than any incidence of overly quiet torso.
The first-order model of standard plants an inflexible (if perhaps initially curved) spine perpendicular to the pelvis and extending through the head. The various segments of the body are free to rotate about this, but not to tilt relative to it. Very advanced dancers may modify this - but only after learning to preserve an awareness of that essential vertical alignment (and the modification tends to be to level out the topline - ie the opposite direction of the action that beginners dancing from the ribcage would create)
Laura
Well-Known Member
I've had the good fortune to dance with Charlotte Jorgenson very briefly once, on a lesson, and also to take lessons from some of her regular students. I would agree with Larinda's observations of the dyanmics and pliabilty.Larinda McRaven said:
One thing I've learned from my movement coach (I don't just say "Pilates teacher" because she studies and teaches Pilates, Feldenkrais, Coremetrics, Gyrotronics, and Geometrics as well as ballet) is that you can LOOK still in a movement like Standard dancing but still have a LOT of things going on internally that achieve the look of stillness. It's not something that seems obvious to some people. The ability to stretch, compress, etc. and to use it to maintain the picture of stillness while dancing is very different from stiffness and rigidity.
Chris Stratton
New Member
Now I'm really thinking and wondering, how much of the torso activity even in latin is ultimately "additive" vs how much is "subtractive" to isolate the head/shoulders from things going on in the center. Particularly recalling a DWTS couple that looked horribly mismatched in samba, because the pro's body action was so subtle compared to the student's.