Random thoughts about following

[Gssh]

His statement seemed to be in response to Jan's post, which led me to that conclusion.

My post was indeed a response to Jan's post - for me there is a strong contradiction in stating that the follwer doesn't express herself, and at the same time that there is a conversation going on.

Re: My personal preferences: They run towards shared weight, fully parallel embrace with a vocabulary that is something like "milonguero crossed with nuevo concepts" - which in real life mostly means that i think that things like an ocho cortado towards the left is a neat thing to throw in once in a while.

But i think valuing the embrace and the connection are red herrings for the question of how this transition from "competent follower" to "good follower" that bastet outlined above happens. It was really the notion that "if everything is lead followers become exchangable" that i am wrangling with - i spend a lot of time dancing with beginning and and intermediate followers who prefer to dance more open, and one of the reasons they put forward is that they feel that there is no room to express themselves in colse embrace with simple vocabulary, and i always claim that that is an illusion, that a follower is able to express herself the same or even more in close embrace, and that real expression is not in adornos, but in the embrace, in the quality of the step, when the connection becomes encompassing enough that the leader can dance with the followers feet instead of his own and hears the music through her ears, when it is no longer two people dancing, but one gestalt-

-and this is back to "annoying tango mysticism" as one of my friend calls it, and is not helping people who have not experienced it to find it.

And i see a lot of followers (and leaders) plateauing at competent, and after a while giving up, and i am wondering if there is a better way of talking about it that makes this piece of technique accessible. And i think it is technique, that it is communicable, and becasue i think this moment is the core of what i value about tango i am trying to get a handle on how to approach it with somebody who does not know what it is. I don't think this has too much to do with style preferences.


Jan talks about it as "not expressing herself" (and i very much doubt that the milongueros she dances with wouldn't instantaneously recognize her by her dance - i don't believe that she just a blank slate that feels the same to a leader as all the other followers who are not expressing themselves either)
Bastet talks about it as "active following" - and in the same sentence she has to make sure that it is understood that this is not backleading.

And this is basically where i am stuck - when i am at a practica i can ask a follower to not express herself, and just be lead, and i can ask a follower to ornament and fill out my lead as much as she can, and both don't seem to get us as a couple closer to this. In a way i want to say "listen to the music, and to my lead, and express that to the fullest, but it should look "on the outside" as if you were only following without modifying anything about my lead" - but that is not really actionable advice.

Gssh

And for me my best partner, in our best dances does everything i lead, but when i dance with her i hear the music different, i lead the music she hears, and i am surprised at what i am leading and how it feels. This doesn't always happen, it doesn't even happen most of the time, but the times when we find that balance between me just leading what i hear in the music, and her just following what she hears in the music are what make me go to milongas

 

[Gssh]

What is your definition of follower communication, and what is your definition of the follower expressing herself in the dance? I think I understand what Jan is talking about, but I don't know what you mean. Is it that you lead something and the follower occasionally does something else intentionally?

No, not really - i was asking this because i don't understand what Jan is talking about - if she is not expressing herself in any way how can she think of tango as a conversation? a conversation is per definition two-way - she has to express something, somehow to have a conversation.

I very much value the embrace, and i think it does it a grave disservice to not emphasize how expressive a great embrace is, and how little expressing oneself has to do with "body movement and adornos".

Gssh

 

[bordertangoman]

Thanks for replying. And thats the point: more and more frequently I find myself dancing alone at home. There were times I have been every night throughout the week at a milonga. Now I skip almost every milonga.

Maybe you should try blues.. I had some lovely dances last saturday and i get connection with blues dancers far more than with tango dancers, and you have the choice of dancing close, open or very close. At one time we were only touching head to head....that was sublime...

 

[chanchan]

In a way i think of a followers relationship with the lead as similar as the leaders relationship with the music. A leader should not claim that he is expressing himself if he is off beat - he can claim that he is expressing himself if he is off beat in a way that reflects something in the melody, or the lyrics, or whatever, but there needs to be some sense that he is using the music as a framework for what he is doing. In a very similar way the leader (and the music - i think this is part of what makes following so difficult: they have to follow the music, and the leader simultaneously, and if the leader is not trustworthy in his relationship to the music her creative space basically vanishes) provides the framework for the followers dance, and self expression does not require to break out of this framework.

I think your similarity with the following of the music is perfect, we can go on with it: sometimes you feel like abandoning yourself to the music, like floating on a river and letting you be carried by the current. Sometimes you can use the music as base for your creativity. It depends on your personality, on your mood, and of course it greatly depends on the music.
Pugliese is my favourite orchestra, but I must admit that dancing to it is like a challenge, and it limits your freedom with a lot of constraints. D'Arienzo gives you much more opportunities to freely interpret the music. Piazzolla is more like "Really? Am I supposed to follow it?".

The same is true for leading/following. Some of my favourite followers totally abandon themselves to me, in the way that Jan describes: it is NOT like dancing with sticks, because I can feel their breath, their heartbeat, their emotions... it's more like being one body. And they still express themselves. Others do a more active following: adornos, backleading, leading... it's not a problem if they do it occasionally, and listening to me and to the music. It's just more "fun" and less "bliss", but I like both ways to follow, if done properly.

 

[chanchan]

One of the first ways I learned how to give back to the conversation as a follower was when learning how to dance as if the step he was leading was my idea and I had to also take him there with my own movement once he led it. This energizes the followers reaction time and decreases what a leader often feels as "drag" or "slow response time". Another is really learning the music, and how the timing of most of the common movements that are led fit within it.

While it may sound like to some leaders that they teach backleading to advanced followers,

Well... yes... that's just what i call "backleading"!
It's not a problem if the follower is aware of it and only does it when she really wants. It can become unpleasant if done on every step.
It would be like if I am talking to a person and every single word I say she interrupts me to say "yes, that's what I think".

Anyway, the feel of "drag" or "slow response time" is not bad to me, and doesn't actually need to be decreased, especially in tango. If it's really too slow, it can be an issue in the milonga.

 

[ant]

The same is true for leading/following. Some of my favourite followers totally abandon themselves to me, in the way that Jan describes: it is NOT like dancing with sticks, because I can feel their breath, their heartbeat, their emotions... it's more like being one body. And they still express themselves. Others do a more active following: adornos, backleading, leading... it's not a problem if they do it occasionally, and listening to me and to the music. It's just more "fun" and less "bliss", but I like both ways to follow, if done properly.

Originally Posted by bastet
One of the first ways I learned how to give back to the conversation as a follower was when learning how to dance as if the step he was leading was my idea and I had to also take him there with my own movement once he led it. This energizes the followers reaction time and decreases what a leader often feels as "drag" or "slow response time". Another is really learning the music, and how the timing of most of the common movements that are led fit within it.

While it may sound like to some leaders that they teach backleading to advanced followers,

In the context of what has been discussed I would say what Bastet was describing is part of the learning curve for a follower to what you have descibed Chan.

With regard to the reduced size part of your post Chan maybe when done in the way you like it is as a result of the way the follower hears the music and maybe when it it overdone that particular follower is still learning to become a more accomplished follower.

I think in time communication from the body of the follower, with regard to her feeling for the music, will go from being louder and more basic to more subtle and quiet. It seems to me that the heartbeat, breath and emotion you are hearing from her is the more subtle and quieter version shown by the most followers. I also think that this level of following would affect the way I lead her, whether or not this is a conscious intention of her's, because this form of communication is allowing me to feel how she is hearing the music and how she would like the music to affect our movement and I hope that I would be able to react to this.

I think that almost all the posts are all talking about different levels of accomplishment of the same thing.

However I think what Gssh is asking is how can he help a follower to start on that path. The way I see it, his problem is compounded because I also think that some of the most accomplished followers don't even know they are following like this, so they don't know how they got started or how they got there.

 

[bordertangoman]

In the context of what has been discussed I would say what Bastet was describing is part of the learning curve for a follower to what you have descibed Chan.

With regard to the reduced size part of your post Chan maybe when done in the way you like it is as a result of the way the follower hears the music and maybe when it it overdone that particular follower is still learning to become a more accomplished follower.

I think in time communication from the body of the follower, with regard to her feeling for the music, will go from being louder and more basic to more subtle and quiet. It seems to me that the heartbeat, breath and emotion you are hearing from her is the more subtle and quieter version shown by the most followers. I also think that this level of following would affect the way I lead her, whether or not this is a conscious intention of her's, because this form of communication is allowing me to feel how she is hearing the music and how she would like the music to affect our movement and I hope that I would be able to react to this.

I think that almost all the posts are all talking about different levels of accomplishment of the same thing.

However I think what Gssh is asking is how can he help a follower to start on that path. The way I see it, his problem is compounded because I also think that some of the most accomplished followers don't even know they are following like this, so they don't know how they got started or how they got there.

well I've read that three times and i still havnt a clue what it means...

 

[bastet]

Well... yes... that's just what i call "backleading"!
It's not a problem if the follower is aware of it and only does it when she really wants. It can become unpleasant if done on every step.
It would be like if I am talking to a person and every single word I say she interrupts me to say "yes, that's what I think".

Anyway, the feel of "drag" or "slow response time" is not bad to me, and doesn't actually need to be decreased, especially in tango. If it's really too slow, it can be an issue in the milonga.

Yes, I realize this is what a lot of people think when they hear "active follow", but hijacking or inserting a personal preference in what is being led is not at all what I am talking about and I've said so repeatedly. I actually do know how to truly backlead (as in make my own body motions in the reciprocal of the leader in such a way that causes his body to make a motion as if he led it, and I guarantee you it is not an accidental skill, and only one I use if I am trying to show someone how something is led).

What I learned as "active following" is what one of my teachers calls "er"-ing your leader. Ie, if he leads small- go smaller. If he leads big- go bigger, soft, go softer, etc... In other words, take his lead and fully go with to its natural conclusion and really participate in the motion, not just let yourself be "placed" everywhere.

It seems to me from the answers and responses here that most leaders have preset in their heads what they think active following means as soon as they hear the term even mentioned, and I am not likely to be able to change that. But every single advanced following lesson I have every had with various teachers (some more "Nuevo" and some quite traditional) deals mostly with what I have been talking about in some shape or form- how to use your body to maximize what you feel in the lead and how to really make yourself present in the dance.

I can also guarantee you that once this became part of my body knowledge, the dances I got with good leaders went up, not down.

Reagrding Gssh post about the embrace. I also tend to dance with a very close embrace, though I'll do others also when it feels right and goes with the music and the leaders style. And I fully and completely agree that in a good embrace with a good and musical leader, the feeling of freedom to express the music increases,not decreases- and I'm afraid that part lies in his technique. I can't add in what's not there and to try only causes problems so I mostly leave it out in those cases.

It's unfortunate that the follows he appears to have choices amongst right now seem to be learning the opposite- ie- that they aren't free unless they are barely touching their leader, which unfortunately starts to go quickly down the road that most of the guys here are complaining about- followers "doing their own thing" at the expense of the combined dance of the couple. Mostly to him I'd say they lack the experience and training of how to dance close and where the freedom lies there. Truly, dancing close isn't something you can just make a follower do. If she doesn't know how to hold her body, what the change in techniques are from open, then she is, of course, struggling just to bring herself along, and so of course won't know how she can express herself inside an embrace or even have the time or technique to do it. And, it could also be that they are in a stage of dancing where "expressing yourself" means big flashy stuff. I certainly see enough of that but don't have any answers for you past that, until and unless they want to learn how close embrace dancing works.

 

[bordertangoman]

We have been touching on the question of "what do excellent followers actually do" over the last few days, and i think this is worth a new thread.
These two quotes have been bothering me because in my mind there is no contradiction between "slavishly obedient" and "rock chick", nor does precise following make followers interchangable.

okay maybe the rock chicks around you are different to the ones I know..its about musicality and response and personality and feeling in the response. I was talking about two different pieces of music and I would want different types of follower for each.

Pugliando is very percussive and I would want someome who would dance with a bit of oomph, not fairy twinkle toes..

as for belgica. like I said I want someone who listens to me, and stays with me no matter what. I didnt say they were opposites or not contradictory, but just different qualities, like you might choose person A to dance vals with or person for milonga; its how they respond to the music and you.

 

[bastet]

okay maybe the rock chicks around you are different to the ones I know..its about musicality and response and personality and feeling in the response. I was talking about two different pieces of music and I would want different types of follower for each.

Pugliando is very percussive and I would want someome who would dance with a bit of oomph, not fairy twinkle toes..

as for belgica. like I said I want someone who listens to me, and stays with me no matter what. I didnt say they were opposites or not contradictory, but just different qualities, like you might choose person A to dance vals with or person for milonga; its how they respond to the music and you.

I would say a really good follower would be able to do both as the need arose....if you read my response on "er"-ing your leader....

 

[AndaBien]

I would say a really good follower would be able to do both as the need arose....if you read my response on "er"-ing your leader....

Yes, a good follower adjusts to each partner and dances the way he dances.

I always find it odd that some guys choose partners depending on the kind of music being played. That's not how I think about it.

 

[dchester]

No, not really - i was asking this because i don't understand what Jan is talking about - if she is not expressing herself in any way how can she think of tango as a conversation? a conversation is per definition two-way - she has to express something, somehow to have a conversation.

I very much value the embrace, and i think it does it a grave disservice to not emphasize how expressive a great embrace is, and how little expressing oneself has to do with "body movement and adornos".

Gssh

The word "comversation" is extremely ambiguous when using it to talk about dancing. You clearly have a different definition from Jan's definition. I try not to use terms like that (grounded, being another one of those ambiguous terms), as people can interpret these things quite differently. I also try to stay away from who's definition is correct, but rather just try to understand what others (like you) mean, when you use these type of terms.

This is why I asked for your definition of "conversation", as then I would be more likely to have a clue what you really are talking about.

In reading some of your subsequent posts, I've concluded that the term "embrace" (or at least how I was using it), may be ambiguous as well. What I should have said (maybe), is the feeling or emotion that one gets from the embrace, is more important to some of us, than others.

For me, the embrace (i.e. the feelings that one can get from it with the right follower, and with the right song), is what makes tango so special.
I still suspect the embrace is far more important to Jan than it is to you. There are some extremely special & subtle things that go on (sort of like in Bastet's post), when you are dancing with a follower that really understands how to hug. The dance no longer is about the steps, but more about the emotion.

Yes, the man and the woman have different roles, but they are equally important. Now I'm aware that the motivation for the dance is different for some people (and actually it is for me as well, with some songs). But for me, and with certain songs, I'll take a follower that really knows how to embrace and follow, over any other attributes. As the saying goes, "Sometimes the people doing the least, are the best dancers".

 

[bordertangoman]

Yes, a good follower adjusts to each partner and dances the way he dances.

I always find it odd that some guys choose partners depending on the kind of music being played. That's not how I think about it.

well i got the idea from a woman......and I know (at least) one who loves vals another who loves alternative and another who loves milonga and they look for me to dance with...

 

[dchester]

Yes, a good follower adjusts to each partner and dances the way he dances.

I always find it odd that some guys choose partners depending on the kind of music being played. That's not how I think about it.

If someone likes the way I dance to certain song (or type of song), but doesn't like the way I dance to other types of songs, this is a solution.

An (oversimplified) example: To a "happy", high energy type of song, I'll be focusing less on the embrace (or "connection") and more on the steps/movements, using more energy. But with (what I call) a connection song, the embrace is the primary thing I'm concerned with.

Some followers like only the first style, some only like the second style, some actually like both, while some want nothing to do with me (they still remember how bad I was when I first started).

 

[AndaBien]

...An (oversimplified) example: To a "happy", high energy type of song, I'll be focusing less on the embrace (or "connection") and more on the steps/movements, using more energy. But with (what I call) a connection song, the embrace is the primary thing I'm concerned with...

I would dance differently to Pugliese than to canyengue, but they are all, for me, still connection songs.