Agreed, although I made the assumption from the beginning that he was asking about the leader. IMO, the follower shouldn't be going up and down while walking, unless the leader is.
Rise and fall when walking?
- Thread starter Dave Bailey
- Start date
Peaches
Well-Known Member
Where does this idea come from, particularly the "absolutely linear" part? I have never heard that concept before, nor do I usually see it danced that way.
Peaches
Well-Known Member
OMG!!! Someone else (besides DH, myself, and a couple of college friends) who use "blah blah blah fishcakes" expression!!! Where does it come from?!?!
You know.. it occurs to me that we might need to separate leader and follower technique.
In looking at the tango chaos example, a leader could walk this way and there would be little to no bobbing because his leg is ALWAYS straight except when unweighted. The still shots unfortunately show him taking a VERY long step such that his reaching leg is quite far out in front of him. (which is ironic since he states in the previous paragraph NOT to take a big step.. 12" is plenty)
Its important to note that a follower could never translate this technique in reverse and take that long a step without having to either "fall" onto her reaching foot, have her pressure be back rather than into him at certain points, end up on her heel with her front toe coming up, or be in a very dramatic apilado lean.
A follower can't reach backward very far at all (especially in heels) if her standing leg is straight. The standing leg must bend for her to properly extend/reach. Therefore it has to either bend as she transfers her weight or bend after transferring weight to a straight leg.
I (and every teacher I've had) prefer the former. Stepping onto a straight leg and then bending it will result in bobbing up and down. If the leader on the other hand NEVER bends, his horizontal motion is still pretty constant. However, I haven't actually met a leader who dances this way, so its only theoretical from my viewpoint.
But the follower dancing with this particular example must be dancing with bend in her supporting knee or with a serious amount of apilado lean (in which case, he might be on balance, but she would be depending on his axis for hers). It would be the only way she could maintain her forward pressure while he is reaching so far out in front of him. By frame 3 of these still shots, her weight would now be behind her front foot rather than over it if her front leg is straight, but he hasn't actually placed his own reaching foot for her to have weight on her own back foot.... result? She's falling away from him.
If her front leg is bent, she can still be pressing forward while reaching this far back, although it would appear to me that based on her starting position, she would still have her body behind her foot.
I am basing this reasoning on the assumption that since he starts on his own balance, he expects his partner to be on her own axis as well. From there you can figure where her standing foot is based on her chest in contact with his and her front leg line mirroring (NOT parallelling) his own. Then as he moves, her front foot can't move backwards, so its easy to see how it ends up in front of her long before she gets to place weigh on her reaching back leg.
To avoid that, she either needs to be leaning on him or not in close embrace. If this walk is intended to be an open embrace walk, then... never mind....
I got it from the Television Without Pity (spare the snark, spoil the networks!) website
I didn't get that either, but I decided to ignore it since it seemed to be a topic for another thread.
Dave Bailey
Active Member
Whatever else is unclear to me, it's clearly nuts for one partner to be bobbing up and down whilst the other stays level.
jantango
Well-Known Member
No, it's impossible. When two are connected, they move together.
The question of rise and fall could be answered by attending a milonga in Lo de Celia or Centro Region Leonesa and observing the milongueros. If you can't make the trip in person, watch a video on YouTube.
Lui
Active Member
When dancing a lot of traspies, weight and direction changes, rebotes, etc there are a lot of impulses transmitted by the frame of the lead in short time. Having to much movement up and down will obscure the lead, like white noise can interfere a radio transmission. Moving along one height goes with the idea to refrain from sending any super plus signals through the leading frame.
Imagine the dancers legs to be a compass (I hope that’s the correct word, I mean that circle drawing tool). If you open up the tool the distances between the needle and the pen is great but the top height is low. For really long steps stage style there is no other way than to go low. If you want to hold the top a the maximum height, you have to close the tool. Pulling the lady up will result in a sudden stop. The legs will have nowhere to go. That’s good for some rare use, like those tiny milonga corridita steps. As a regular stop, this is much to brutal for me. It’s like stopping a train by the emergency brake. To alter the step length or lead a stop, it feels much better to add or withdraw momentum while her leg hasn’t passed the standing one. This can be done at the same level of height.
Furthermore, when you lead a downward movement with determination to an experienced milonguera, while she is in bad mood (or show mood), she will take the momentum and go down all the way stage style. Be careful what you lead, your partner might dance it!
Imagine the dancers legs to be a compass (I hope that’s the correct word, I mean that circle drawing tool). If you open up the tool the distances between the needle and the pen is great but the top height is low. For really long steps stage style there is no other way than to go low. If you want to hold the top a the maximum height, you have to close the tool. Pulling the lady up will result in a sudden stop. The legs will have nowhere to go. That’s good for some rare use, like those tiny milonga corridita steps. As a regular stop, this is much to brutal for me. It’s like stopping a train by the emergency brake. To alter the step length or lead a stop, it feels much better to add or withdraw momentum while her leg hasn’t passed the standing one. This can be done at the same level of height.
Furthermore, when you lead a downward movement with determination to an experienced milonguera, while she is in bad mood (or show mood), she will take the momentum and go down all the way stage style. Be careful what you lead, your partner might dance it!
Angel HI
Well-Known Member
Been just reading, but feel now I may offer my thoughts. First, let's correct something. Welcome to the DF, JohnEm, but...
Secondly, IMO, Amps' and Zoops' posts #21 and #22 are the most apropos. Zoops also posted a subsequent point re the bending and straightening of legs that is noteworthy to the OP's question.
Lastly, dance is movement. Yes, there are particular techniques applicable to each, including AT. However, no 2 persons move the same; individual's musicality differ; and styles are as numerous as dancers. Referring to the explanation of rise/lower above, watch Fabian and Virginia (you can start at about :40 and watch for a bit to get the point) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJG7kAfjcWA . There is an undeniable sense of rise lower in the basic walk. It is undeniably used to define style, technique, and lead-ability. Good AT? Certainly. Everyone's favor? Probably not. But an expert usage of rise/lower of the body while maintaining a whole footed, normal walking placement of the feet... standard AT.
... is only half accurate. In BR, rise and lower (fall) does not refer to the bending of knees or lower of the body. You are correct in that rise is the rolling up onto the balls of the feet. Lower simply means to return from a rise (lower the heels to the floor). The often times subsequent flexing of the knees is a resulting action of the lower... not the lower (fall) itself.
Secondly, IMO, Amps' and Zoops' posts #21 and #22 are the most apropos. Zoops also posted a subsequent point re the bending and straightening of legs that is noteworthy to the OP's question.
Lastly, dance is movement. Yes, there are particular techniques applicable to each, including AT. However, no 2 persons move the same; individual's musicality differ; and styles are as numerous as dancers. Referring to the explanation of rise/lower above, watch Fabian and Virginia (you can start at about :40 and watch for a bit to get the point) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJG7kAfjcWA . There is an undeniable sense of rise lower in the basic walk. It is undeniably used to define style, technique, and lead-ability. Good AT? Certainly. Everyone's favor? Probably not. But an expert usage of rise/lower of the body while maintaining a whole footed, normal walking placement of the feet... standard AT.
Hi Angel Hi
Think after that post I should call myself John Lower.
You demonstrate how difficult it is to get visual, artistic, physical movement over in writing. All these things we write come from our own personal perspectives.
Yes, you're right that the visual rise and fall in ballroom comes from the whole action and I would have been better to say that. But to produce the whole effect as a leader you have to separate the lowering from the ball of the foot from the bend of the leg needed to provide the drive. And without the bend of the leg it doesn't look much like a "fall". But this is the AT forum . . .
As for a rise and fall of the body by straightening and bending the knee, no thanks it isn't "standard" AT at all. And nor is that video,
I couldn't even watch it to the end, where's the connection? I've qualified all my comments about where my interest is in AT, perhaps everyone else should too because clearly most have a different perspective which is fair enough, that's one of the conundrums of AT.
I'll admit that I like that AT is different from other dances and it makes it a serious challenge to anyone coming to it in mid-life and beyond and from other cultures too. I think we might regret that other dance influences have already blurred that differentiation but maybe I'm in a minority of one on here.
There's no point in repeating all my earlier comments, I could find lots of milonguero video to support "my" straight legged contention. It isn't mine in fact, it's what I've learned from being taught and strive to execute, subsequently researched, watched, read on the net etc and then reached my own conclusion.
Reading www.tangoandchaos.com explains it best. Rick McGarry deserves everyone's gratitude in AT for the obvious heartfelt dedication that's been expended in documenting, explaining and videoing "true" AT in BsAs. For me his site is the one of the best demonstrations of the power of the web to spread knowledge constructively. Thank goodness he has done this while there are/were some of the original milongueros around. I think it's a significant resource that may come to be treasured in the future.
Think I'll go back to lurking now . . . .
good post from lui
Maybe not absolutely linear, but not going down in side step like in Tango Salon and the rise when collecting.
That more general line should be the same.
Dave Bailey
Active Member
To quote Godfather II: "Difficult, not impossible."
Flippin' heck Jan, do you ever answer a question with anything other than a plug for a BsAs milonga?
jantango
Well-Known Member
Dave,
Buenos Aires happens to be the only city in which I have danced for the last ten years. I mention the milongas of BsAs for obvious reasons. Anyone who dances tango should visit Buenos Aires and see for themselves. In fact, I talked with a female teacher from London on Sunday who attended the milonga upon my recommendation and commented how friendly a place it is.
As the saying goes, "Don't knock it until you've tried it."
Buenos Aires happens to be the only city in which I have danced for the last ten years. I mention the milongas of BsAs for obvious reasons. Anyone who dances tango should visit Buenos Aires and see for themselves. In fact, I talked with a female teacher from London on Sunday who attended the milonga upon my recommendation and commented how friendly a place it is.
As the saying goes, "Don't knock it until you've tried it."