Rise on the cross??

[JohnEm]

Cool - that explains a lot that I wasn't quite getting (especially with the other cross thread).

We tend to collect as the first part of the next step... gotta love ol' ideosyncratic Tango!

Not so sure about Tango being that idiosyncratic but teaching sure can be
and very inconsistent whereas the tango that I strive for - and I suspect
you too - does depend on consistent technique. It's that consistency that
then enables the improvisation so the unpredictability is within known limits
for dancing socially with different partners. It's the mix of styles and teaching
which largely is resulting in its seeming perversity and the difficulty
of dancing with everyone at milongas. We are dancing different dialects.

That said, I agree with AndaBien. Collecting helps enable a stable axis
of both man and woman. Open ochos are step, collect, pivot, wait.

In fact I like a description I was given very early on that the lady
should regard each half of the step separately, an opening and then
a closing to a collect. Even when walking the closing leg slows down
towards the collect so it's available to pause or sidestep and then
accelerates away towards the foot's landing on the beat.
This principle helps avoid the "racing leg" syndrome.

I think you'll also find Rick McGarrey (or Alej) on Tango and Chaos
describes the principle.

 

[bordertangoman]

Is it?

No, I was joking, but there are a lot of other possibilities...

 

[Zoopsia59]

Even when walking the closing leg slows down
towards the collect so it's available to pause or sidestep and then
accelerates away towards the foot's landing on the beat.
This principle helps avoid the "racing leg" syndrome.

I wonder if leaders attempting lead this change of pace of the follower's free leg is why with some leaders I feel there's a lag in the weight transfer that leaves me stuck. I feel the intention to a step, I start the step, I get my weight almost there, then the leader stops giving me forward intention so that I don't have my weight on both feet, but I can't quite finish getting over my new standing leg unless I "lead" him to move me. It's like I have been told to take the step but then can't QUITE get my weight solid over the new leg.

I only have this issue with a couple of leaders, but it is a constant problem I have walking with them. ie: not a specific change or alternate movement, but a way they walk on EVERY forward step. I wonder if they just can't feel that my weight isn't transferred yet? I would consider that I am reaching too far, but I am reaching based on how much they move me. Then they stop just short of that.

These leaders dance CE, but without any apilado. I give them forward pressure, but don't feel a lot from them to start and then its completely gone at a certain point in the movement. If I press any more forward, I'll fall over, so it's not that I'm pulling away from them (and if that were the case, I would be having that problem more consistently with many leaders)

Now that you've written this, I am wondering if they are trying to create/force this change of momentum i my free leg. If they are, then the timing is not right because it is awkward for me to complete my weight transfer, but it isn't just a "slowing in the middle". It is a "stop too soon".

 

[AndaBien]

@Zoopia: from your description, it sounds as though these leaders must have an uneven walk forward, to give you a strong impetuous but not a strong completion. I imagine them lunging on each individual step.

 

[JohnEm]

I wonder if leaders attempting lead this change of pace of the follower's free leg is why with some leaders I feel there's a lag in the weight transfer that leaves me stuck. I feel the intention to a step, I start the step, I get my weight almost there, then the leader stops giving me forward intention so that I don't have my weight on both feet, but I can't quite finish getting over my new standing leg unless I "lead" him to move me. It's like I have been told to take the step but then can't QUITE get my weight solid over the new leg.

I only have this issue with a couple of leaders, but it is a constant problem I have walking with them. ie: not a specific change or alternate movement, but a way they walk on EVERY forward step. I wonder if they just can't feel that my weight isn't transferred yet? I would consider that I am reaching too far, but I am reaching based on how much they move me. Then they stop just short of that.

These leaders dance CE, but without any apilado. I give them forward pressure, but don't feel a lot from them to start and then its completely gone at a certain point in the movement. If I press any more forward, I'll fall over, so it's not that I'm pulling away from them (and if that were the case, I would be having that problem more consistently with many leaders)

Now that you've written this, I am wondering if they are trying to create/force this change of momentum i my free leg. If they are, then the timing is not right because it is awkward for me to complete my weight transfer, but it isn't just a "slowing in the middle". It is a "stop too soon".

Like AndaBien, trying to answer this puts me in the realm of speculation
though I can't quite envisage the lunge and pause motion that he does,
not from your description anyway.

But first there's no guesswork in saying that the leader doesn't lead the
pace of the free leg, that really is your part. I was trying to emphasise
the idea of collecting as part of the walk as a slowing down to the vertical
position along the weight-bearing leg ready to stop (though an uplift helps
gives notice of that intention), step sideways or accelerate away again
having continued to travel through.

Speculating, your difficulty seems more like a lack of intention and commitment
from your problematic leaders. Maybe they require more core tone, better posture
and balance plus confident projection etc., etc. It could that be your forward force
is literally tipping them slightly backwards just as you are trying to move
your weight over your new standing leg. Maybe they are either not committing
to the step enough or they aren't providing consistent forward intent. Or both.

You know that I talk about walking forward into floor - I do that because
my personal experience is that developing it solved all the strange problems
of the dynamics of walking with a partner facing you chest to chest. It helps
both partners to continuously create new axes with confidence and surety.

I can only hope this helps.

 

[v22TTC]

AndaBien and JohnEm: I've had a ponder about this... I think the main difference is more conceptual than practical; the main practical difference being that I have to lead things (collections) that your followers do automatically. I would, of course lead a collect (and wait for her to be steady) before leading a pivot etc.

Dunno - it's more down to where we are measuring from: Assuming that we're walking to the same music, hitting the floor on the strong beats, I step (as in move and transfer weight) on the beat and that step (and count of the music) is finished, then I collect (at the weak beat) and step again; so it's beat to beat where steps happen, conceptually, for me.

You'd seem to be doing exactly the same thing (to an observer), but conceptually you consider your steps to finish on the weak beat, since a post-weight-transfer collection is part of the step? So your complete steps are really weak beat to weak beat, where mine are strong beat to strong beat, even though we're stepping and collecting at exactly the same points in the music?

Is that right?

 

[Peaches]

I wonder if leaders attempting lead this change of pace of the follower's free leg is why with some leaders I feel there's a lag in the weight transfer that leaves me stuck. I feel the intention to a step, I start the step, I get my weight almost there, then the leader stops giving me forward intention so that I don't have my weight on both feet, but I can't quite finish getting over my new standing leg unless I "lead" him to move me. It's like I have been told to take the step but then can't QUITE get my weight solid over the new leg.

I only have this issue with a couple of leaders, but it is a constant problem I have walking with them. ie: not a specific change or alternate movement, but a way they walk on EVERY forward step. I wonder if they just can't feel that my weight isn't transferred yet? I would consider that I am reaching too far, but I am reaching based on how much they move me. Then they stop just short of that.

These leaders dance CE, but without any apilado. I give them forward pressure, but don't feel a lot from them to start and then its completely gone at a certain point in the movement. If I press any more forward, I'll fall over, so it's not that I'm pulling away from them (and if that were the case, I would be having that problem more consistently with many leaders)

Now that you've written this, I am wondering if they are trying to create/force this change of momentum i my free leg. If they are, then the timing is not right because it is awkward for me to complete my weight transfer, but it isn't just a "slowing in the middle". It is a "stop too soon".

OMG! You mean it's not just me?!?! I have been trying to figure out how to deal with this for ages it seems like!

Holy crap. This is a serious revelation for me.

 

[JohnEm]

AndaBien and JohnEm: I've had a ponder about this... I think the main difference is more conceptual than practical; the main practical difference being that I have to lead things (collections) that your followers do automatically. I would, of course lead a collect (and wait for her to be steady) before leading a pivot etc.

Dunno - it's more down to where we are measuring from: Assuming that we're walking to the same music, hitting the floor on the strong beats, I step (as in move and transfer weight) on the beat and that step (and count of the music) is finished, then I collect (at the weak beat) and step again; so it's beat to beat where steps happen, conceptually, for me.

You'd seem to be doing exactly the same thing (to an observer), but conceptually you consider your steps to finish on the weak beat, since a post-weight-transfer collection is part of the step? So your complete steps are really weak beat to weak beat, where mine are strong beat to strong beat, even though we're stepping and collecting at exactly the same points in the music?

Is that right?

Perhaps now it's getting to the point of over-analysis.

I have never consciously thought of steps starting and ending
though I do remember in my foxtrot days a moment of revelation
when I discovered that ballroom teaching regards a step being from
standing to standing whereas I was regarding it being from landing
to landing. Explained a lot about how I could never understand the
timing of quicks and slows. Not that teacher ever explained it, had
to buy a book to find that out.

In tango it was explained to me that steps should be regarded
in two halves which I've covered earlier. And as you are thinking
so mechanically (no criticism intended) perhaps you should indeed
positively change your thinking to that. As you say, the result is
the same movement at the same point but it might help you
to be able to improvise in the future.

 

[JohnEm]

OMG! You mean it's not just me?!?!
I have been trying to figure out how to deal with this for ages it seems like!
This is a serious revelation for me.

As a mere male perhaps I should fear to tread further!

It does seem though that perhaps you should both experiment
with walking differently with such leaders. From Zoopsia's explanation
she feels she is reaching back in response to the pace leader is indicating
but because of whatever inconsistent intention he is providing that
intent and drive disappears leaving her marooned.

Perhaps one answer is to curtail the backstep so that you are not relying
on a consistency of motion to help place you over your leg but you retain
total control of that. In fact I remember the girls being taught by one
teacher that they should not rely on their leader to place them over
their leg but are responsible for that themselves. Not that I think either
of you are doing that, in this case you receiving erratic signals.

That might make you feel heavy though so the only other solution
to a variable forward leader's intent is to remove some of your own
forward intent and be more vertical. These leaders may be more
comfortable that way and so might you be with them.

Leaders do experience lack of forward connection from followers and
all sorts of accommodations are necessary at times.

 

[Peaches]

I was just more shocked that someone else had encountered the same issue as me. However...

It does seem though that perhaps you should both experiment with walking differently with such leaders.

Yep, that's pretty much the way I've been able to deal with it...just as you've said:

Perhaps one answer is to curtail the backstep [...snip...]and be more vertical.

Yeah, this is what I end up doing. And it sucks. I appreciate that there are all kinds of ways that the leaders have to accomodate the followers, but this is surely a two-way street. The only thing I've found that works with these leaders (short of losing my balance, leaning overly much on them, etc.) is to take shorter steps and, if not break the connection by dancing open, then weaken it to the point where close embrace is just pointless.

What seems to happen with some leaders is that they don't seem very in control of where their own weight is. They may start out with their weight forward over the ball of the foot/instep...but it's like when they start walking their weight shifts back to over their heels. And, yes, just that small shift can make a difference...particularly if you're dancing with a lot of forward intention/shared weight. Then they arrive at their next step, but the follower is left in an extremely awkward in-between place. That's my theory based on what I've felt anyway.

That said, it is NOT

relying on a consistency of motion to help place you over your leg

remove some of your own forward intent and be more vertical. These leaders may be more comfortable that way and so might you be with them.

Ugh. So few guys around here it seems really dance with a good embrace with forward intention at all anyway. It's so rare to find I guy I can really establish that very "heavy" connection with, which I love. Most of the time they back off it. Sigh. I don't even care about apilado, just some pressure and presence in the embrace. And...yet...they won't dance open. There have been times where I just want to yell or put up a sign: "Men, if you're afraid of, or otherwise don't like, the boobies...just dance open!"

Of course, I'll accomodate. But it doesn't mean I have to be happy about it all the time.

 

[JohnEm]

As we pretty much understand each other I'll ignore the minor differences.

However:

What seems to happen with some leaders is that they don't seem very in control of where their own weight is. They may start out with their weight forward over the ball of the foot/instep...but it's like when they start walking their weight shifts back to over their heels. And, yes, just that small shift can make a difference...particularly if you're dancing with a lot of forward intention/shared weight. Then they arrive at their next step, but the follower is left in an extremely awkward in-between place. That's my theory based on what I've felt anyway.

This has triggered some further thought about . . . . . . . shoes!!!

I've written elsewhere about the significance of heel height for forward
projection and stability but not about the dynamic effect of an effective
heel height and the consequences of a low heel.

People seem to dance in all sorts of shoes without much regard or appreciation
of what's needed. And they seem to be sold in much the same way.
If the heel height is too low the leader's weight will be biased back when standing
or moving weight forward makes the heels go light, probably weightless,
and stability in the stance is lost. Walk in such shoes and tipping/moving forward
is possible if a little unstable but when the weight is landed, the heel isn't
where it should be so the leader's weight could indeed sink onto the heel
under the follower's forward intention and destroy the leader's.
It could be the effect Zoopsia is feeling.

In my case a good friend and tango partner used to tell me about a hesitation
she felt but never was able to exactly tell me what it was. Another felt an
improvement when I solved the shoe dilemma and was able to connect
firmly with the floor. Perhaps this has something to do with it?

Your example of the weight shifting back onto their heels at the start of the walk
is a classic example of the heel not being as high as it should be. Care is needed
as my early experiments resulted in heels that were too high and you end up
sort of oddly trying to walk over your heel. This ain't easy!

It's not surprising that men use all sorts of different shoes, they are never
told and it takes a lot of (over?) analysis to get to this understanding.
Shoes of all sorts of weird shapes and constructions are sold/bought.
I looked at three different designs of Darcos shoes recently, every one
was different, only one possibly suitable in my eyes for tango. They
couldn't all be right as they were all so different. The most weird was an
eye-appealing black and red. The sole arched as normal from the heel
but at the point of contact of the sole the table/ground, it was bent
sharply upwards at about 20/25% as if shooting for the sky.
Not sure it was suitable for a foot never mind Tango!

I know this doesn't help directly but have a look yourself at those
leaders' feet and stance next time you're sat watching.
News of your views would be welcome.

Meanwhile I have been thinking of posting an article to gather up
these shoe posts as there is so little information about.
I may give this some more thought in time.

 

[v22TTC]

JohnEm: I have a few thoughts/questions about the collection thing, but for now, I think that it is a great idea to collect your posts with your shoes insights - I have some questions about this and don't want this to be all over the place in other threads.

Your earlier posts were in the 'Man's Walk: Porteños and Panthers' thread, on pages 5 and 6, if this helps to save you a job.

 

[v22TTC]

JohnEm: Me being me, I literally can't comprehend what 'over-analysis' means, in terms of the learning/programming, rather than the doing: I derive a great deal of my all-important confidence from as-thorough-as-possible deep understanding... I feel less likely to be taken by surprise as I'm dancing from the heart/soul... like I can only relax and let myself go if I feel that my back's been previously covered, earlier, by me.

So, thank you for your parenthetical qualification, in the earlier post.

If we can use the term 'step' to denote the move/weight transfer: How does the concept of step-then-auto-collect ('open-then-close') offer greater improvisation ability than collect-then-step ('close-then-open')?

I hope that it's clear that I'm not getting into a ''my' way is better', defensive thing here [or ever!]; but it seems to me that step-then-auto-collect offers less ability to improvise and is less the 'everything is led' TA-ideal (the follower has to catch your exceptional 'don't collect' lead, or she will auto-do-something)... and is 'less musical', since every complete step straddles the phrase/count at its end, with its weak beat auto-collect.

What am I missing/not getting about this? I suspect that this is actually very important, and will likely trip me up if I can ever get out and dance with others from other scenes....

 

[v22TTC]

Well, while it's quiet... sorry JohnEm:-

Since there are no suitable dance-shoe shops near me, I have to keep shooting into the dark when it comes to dance shoes, with mail-order (without too much luck...).

Re: The Darcos you mentioned, would the Porteño 4s on page 1 of their 'Tango shoes' be the right shape?

Again, I totally agree about the relevance of the shoes, and am so glad that you called my attention to this: one of those real 'epiphany' moments.

My problem is that in bare feet/slippers I honestly can stand/step exactly properly (weight on ball around 60-70%, heel around 30-40% and practically nothing on the toes, body straight and leaning forwards); but in shoes, the rigidity of the sole coupled with an even slight upturn at the toe has me tipping forwards onto the toes, heels mostly off the deck, which then has me having to lean back to compensate. As you say, this may well be happening with Zoops' and Peaches' problem leaders too....

It seems that I have to choose between arch-support, having found a shoe with absolutely no sole upturn at the toe, and wedge-modified heel (as you mentioned in the other thread); or have a very flexible sole that won't fight against what I can do naturally... a jazz shoe or something (and I never seem to have needed arch support anyway...).

Would that sound about right?

 

[AndaBien]

JohnEm: Me being me, I literally can't comprehend what 'over-analysis' means, in terms of the learning/programming, rather than the doing: I derive a great deal of my all-important confidence from as-thorough-as-possible deep understanding... I feel less likely to be taken by surprise as I'm dancing from the heart/soul... like I can only relax and let myself go if I feel that my back's been previously covered, earlier, by me.

...If we can use the term 'step' to denote the move/weight transfer: How does the concept of step-then-auto-collect ('open-then-close') offer greater improvisation ability than collect-then-step ('close-then-open')? ...

If I may intercede, I consider dancing to be a right-brain activity, while analysis is a left-brain activity. To approach dancing via the analytical brain is okay, if it's helpful, but eventually you have to go away from your left-brain thinking and begin using your right-brain. I think some people over analyze because they are not comfortable using their right-brain. In that case, the analyzing becomes a hindrance to their learning.

Regarding shoes, for men, I don't think it's all that important. A skillful dancer will not be hindered by their shoes. I've seen many beginners be overly concerned about their shoes, and later on they just don't think about it anymore. Just find something that is comfortable, with a leather sole.