Rise on the cross??

[bastet]

Peaches and Zoopsia- It's not just you. I get this on occasion with leaders who don't know where their weight is....or who don't understand how holding it in a different place affects their followers.

So this:

"Yeah, this is what I end up doing. And it sucks. I appreciate that there are all kinds of ways that the leaders have to accomodate the followers, but this is surely a two-way street. The only thing I've found that works with these leaders (short of losing my balance, leaning overly much on them, etc.) is to take shorter steps and, if not break the connection by dancing open, then weaken it to the point where close embrace is just pointless.

What seems to happen with some leaders is that they don't seem very in control of where their own weight is. They may start out with their weight forward over the ball of the foot/instep...but it's like when they start walking their weight shifts back to over their heels. And, yes, just that small shift can make a difference...particularly if you're dancing with a lot of forward intention/shared weight. Then they arrive at their next step, but the follower is left in an extremely awkward in-between place. That's my theory based on what I've felt anyway."

One of my instructors (who trained with Gavito so does lots of apilado) always points out to the leaders that they have not completed a step until they have made sure that they lady is where she needs to be weight wise (so back over the balls of their feet).

Still, just to know this doesn't help me much in real life and I just end up doing as you do with these leads and dance in open. Close embrace, much less apilado is pretty pointless.

 

[JohnEm]

Well, while it's quiet... sorry JohnEm:-

Since there are no suitable dance-shoe shops near me, I have to keep shooting into the dark when it comes to dance shoes, with mail-order (without too much luck...).

Re: The Darcos you mentioned, would the Porteño 4s on page 1 of their 'Tango shoes' be the right shape?

Well visually they look as if they might be ok but experience says I cannot recommend
buying in this way. Unfortunately there is no simple side on view either.
Pictures never tell the whole story.

My problem is that in bare feet/slippers I honestly can stand/step exactly properly (weight on ball around 60-70%, heel around 30-40% and practically nothing on the toes, body straight and leaning forwards); but in shoes, the rigidity of the sole coupled with an even slight upturn at the toe has me tipping forwards onto the toes, heels mostly off the deck, which then has me having to lean back to compensate.

Yes indeed, regardless of what AndaBien thinks.

Unless you have a unique body with its mass differently distributed(!)
I think you're kidding yourself about standing in bare feet. It may feel as if
you are leaning forward but look in a full height mirror and see what you see.
You may be compensating in your upper body. Be toned and lean forward
as if you are imitating a pillar (or The Leaning Tower of Pisa?) and your heels
will go light. Then sit your heels on some magazines to imitate a heel; see
and feel the difference. Been there, done all this. Sad isn't it?

It seems that I have to choose between arch-support, having found a shoe with absolutely no sole upturn at the toe, and wedge-modified heel (as you mentioned in the other thread); or have a very flexible sole that won't fight against what I can do naturally... a jazz shoe or something (and I never seem to have needed arch support anyway...).
Would that sound about right?

Afraid not! I see people in all sorts of shoes and just don't think they are right.
It's normal that different dances require different shoes. Argentine Tango
perversely is a walking dance, an oxymoron if ever there was one.
Strangely too, it comes from Argentina! So I always wonder what BsAs shoes
were like in the 40s and 50s. It seems the milongueros used normal outdoor
shoes, and why not for a walking dance? So would their normal heels be higher
than ours? It's quite possible as this weight forward stance is similar in all
Latin dances (I know, I know, Tango isn't regarded as one) though
they have different dance actions.

I've danced Tango in Freed dance trainers with heel packed high inside
as an experiment and in an extensively modified moccasin type shoe freely
available to buy at many events and to everyone watching they seem normal.
But they aren't. You cannot tell what has been changed looking from the outside.
You have to be wearing them. And it's not unknown for teachers to modify
shoes they've bought, I've heard them say so, even to a shoe seller.

If you must buy a shoe unseen which I don't recommend, I'd suggest you start
with a 3cm heel. Take into account your foot width as the last thing you want
is a squeezed foot, you need it flat inside the shoe to be able to use the toes
to aid balance. And you want the minimum of shoe extending beyond your toes
and a sole that is stable underfoot. My moccasin shoes are dreadful in that regard
so this again is from personal knowledge. You cannot reliably meet these criteria
from a web page.

And now I've probably given you even more to think about!

 

[JohnEm]

One of my instructors (who trained with Gavito so does lots of apilado) always points out to the leaders that they have not completed a step until they have made sure that they lady is where she needs to be weight wise (so back over the balls of their feet).

That is such a good point that every leader should know.
Only one teacher so far has ever pointed that out.
Thanks for reminding me and stating it.

The man isn't responsible for putting the lady on her axis
but is responsible for making sure she is in the correct place
to do that herself and has the time to do so.

 

[JohnEm]

If we can use the term 'step' to denote the move/weight transfer: How does the concept of step-then-auto-collect ('open-then-close') offer greater improvisation ability than collect-then-step ('close-then-open')?

I'm not advocating either though I must admit that my vision of what
you meant originally is not what is obvious now.

It's interesting (if only to me while everyone else reading is getting bored)
that as a beginner/learner your concept of a step is exactly the same as
mine was. Dance timing doesn't regard this layman's view so here is
my eureka explanation from Alex Moore's "Ballroom Dancing".

Step. This usually refers to one movement of the foot, although from a
"time value"point of view this is incorrect. In the case of a walk forward
or backward, for instance, the time value of the step is not completed
until the moving foot is drawn up to the foot supporting the weight,
ready to commence another step.

Do you understand that? No? OK, it doesn't matter, forget it for tango.
The milongueros never would have thought in those terms and as far as
I can tell we don't need to either.

I'm not suggesting either foot landing to foot landing as you seem to prefer
to envisage it or collect to collect as it's envisaged for timing purposes
in say ballroom tango. I'm recommending you eliminate any thought of either
and regard each half of a full step as an entity in its own right.

From standing on axis move free leg to land foot on (strong) beat one - first half/entity
Transfer weight & close/collect unweighted leg on (weaker) beat two - second half/entity.

And so on. Magic - no confusion at all!

Except, all of this talk, your talk, is potentially confusing your head.
And even my words here are compounding that confusion.

It's even better to not think at all about steps and feet even though actual
stepping and landing on the beat is the aim. So though I've talked about
steps above and moving the free leg better still is to think and act in terms
of moving your body forward timed in such a way that your free leg is
compelled to move to the position of the next axis to land on the beat.
In other words, do yourself what the ladies have to practise. Body moves
first followed by leg.

And that is quite enough of that!

 

[Peaches]

LOL. See, guys? We ladies are not just being crazy by being so obsessed by shoes! They're important! ;-)

 

[Peaches]

On a more serious note--I see you guys complaining about shoes that are either too stiff, or don't have enough heel, or various other issues. Have you not run across split-soled shoes with heels, or latin-esque shoes with heels and a nice flexible sole? Or have you tried them and found them not to work?

 

[bordertangoman]

LOL. See, guys? We ladies are not just being crazy by being so obsessed by shoes! They're important! ;-)

save money, just paint your feet black, guys; everyone's looking at her CiFs anyway.

in the heyday of tango shoes were made out of cardboard* (the Grimes choice)





*obscure joke for Pratchett fans

 

[Peaches]

*obscure joke for Pratchett fans

LOL. Nicely done, sir! (Where's a "like" button around here when you need one!)

 

[JohnEm]

LOL. See, guys? We ladies are not just being crazy by being so obsessed by shoes! They're important! :wink:

Yes - but I have only a choice of one pair of shoes that really work.

On a more serious note--I see you guys complaining about shoes that are either too stiff, or don't have enough heel, or various other issues. Have you not run across split-soled shoes with heels, or latin-esque shoes with heels and a nice flexible sole? Or have you tried them and found them not to work?

I've tried them all. Some shoes bought from BsAs via ebay (bad early mistake)
were badly made, worse fitting and far too stiff.

The necessary bendability can be in the sole unit or provided by being split
in two parts. I've no particular preference. If I wanted a street shoe that
was danceable I'd want a split sole shoe and they are available in BsAs.

 

[Peaches]

Yes - but I have only a choice of one pair of shoes that really work.

And now you understand why we go for multiple pairs of shoes which are identical but for the color!

 

[JohnEm]

And now you understand why we go for multiple pairs of shoes which are identical but for the color!

LoL!!!!
Thanks Peaches, I do! But I don't think I'd look half as good as you
in a fetching pair of black shoes with shiny red heels.

 

[Mosca Negra]

This is an amazingly pedantic discussion. Should one rise on the cross? Really! A follower should be able to do whatever she or he would like to do within the context of the lead and the music.

The rare leader who allows the follower the luxury of time at the cross provides the opportunity for the follower to embellish in anyway she so desires. The best leaders understand the importance of allowing a follower time and the concept of relinquishing the lead to the follower.

Unfortunately, many leaders will dance through the cross in an effort to maintain the beat like a humane metronome. Then there are those leaders who vary the beat in a most unpredictable sequence and in those circumstances it is all a follower can do to complete the cross before being pushed rearwards in a tangle that could not in the least be described by those watching the floor as an elegant transition.

 

[bordertangoman]

This is an amazingly pedantic discussion. Should one rise on the cross? Really! A follower should be able to do whatever she or he would like to do within the context of the lead and the music.

.

no that's modern jive.....

 

[Me]

Rise in tango? Really?

Come on, guys.

 

[v22TTC]

Rise in tango? Really?

Come on, guys.

What do you mean?