Is this true? I danced with a few better salseras tonight. Two of them did not compromise their style (as far as I could tell) to make it easier for me to dance with them. (One did, but she and her husband have become my friends, somewhat.) So one I really had to pay attention to and figure out how to dance with her. At the end of the dance we were really dancing well together but it was like wrestling the tiger at first. The other used minimalist movements and I never really did figure how to make the dance work. I mean she was able to follow me but it never really worked. Presumably both could have toned down the styling a bit to dance with me, but neither did. It seemed to me that I was expected to figure out a way to come up to their level. (And if I do, I get more dances with the better dancers. I definitely feel a desire to make each dance work for this reason. :lol: ) I've experienced this before. I wonder if there's an unwritten code in salsa about earning your way to the top, rather than the better dancers stooping down to dance with the lowlies.
Salsa Dancers Never Stoop
- Thread starter tacad
- Start date
No, no Shooshoo. It was a great night! I can't sleep because of it (hence here I am on DF :roll
Lots of good dances that did work. and I'm not complaining about the two better dancers either. I'm just curious about the salsa hierarchy. Some people would say that the better dancers should dance below their level (or stoop) to the lesser dancers to make the dance work. Others might say that the better dancers should not do this. They should dance at their level and the lesser dancers have to improve to the point where they may be given a chance to dance with the better dancers.
I may be way off on this. :roll: But someone here on Df mentioned they were improving to the point where the better dancers were dancing with them. And that there was this unmentioned hierarchy among salsa dancers that dictated who danced with who.
Lots of good dances that did work. and I'm not complaining about the two better dancers either. I'm just curious about the salsa hierarchy. Some people would say that the better dancers should dance below their level (or stoop) to the lesser dancers to make the dance work. Others might say that the better dancers should not do this. They should dance at their level and the lesser dancers have to improve to the point where they may be given a chance to dance with the better dancers. I may be way off on this. :roll: But someone here on Df mentioned they were improving to the point where the better dancers were dancing with them. And that there was this unmentioned hierarchy among salsa dancers that dictated who danced with who.
Ms_Sunlight
New Member
As far as I can tell, no-one particularly wants to dance with me. So count yourself lucky.
I think this rather the result of the personality of the dancer than an (unwritten) law in Salsa.
I always try to adjust to my partner at best to make the dance as enjoyable for both of us as possible. And I danced with leaders who did the same to (thanx to everyone of them) but also with guys who didn't care about my difficulities ending up in me running around quite confused trying figure out what is going on or they even walked-off the dance floor in the middle of the song.
But I wouldn't consider this a normal or appropriate behaviour in Salsa.
I always try to adjust to my partner at best to make the dance as enjoyable for both of us as possible. And I danced with leaders who did the same to (thanx to everyone of them) but also with guys who didn't care about my difficulities ending up in me running around quite confused trying figure out what is going on or they even walked-off the dance floor in the middle of the song.
But I wouldn't consider this a normal or appropriate behaviour in Salsa.
MacMoto
Active Member
Don't know about unwritten code... the dynamic of each scene is different. Some may be more cliquish or elitist than other. Also, different individuals do different things, and the same person may react differently depending on the circumstances.tacad said:
Re. toning down styling -- when I dance with some one who is *clearly* a beginner, I keep my dancing simple and plain vanilla so I won't scare him ofof (with your ballroom experience, you probably don't look like an obvious beginner -- maybe that's the problem?). If the guy is advanced and dances way above my level, I don't have time to style. In between these extremes, it all depends on the music and how the leader dances. If he seems receptive to it, I throw in tons of styling. Generally, this is more about the way he dances (passionate, playful, fun) than his skill level. There are times when I do quite a lot of styling even though I'm not sure if the leader could handle it, if the music is really good and I can't restrain myself
:roll:. Even though I do pay attention to the leader's level to an extent, I judge a dance by the strength of emotional connection than technical proficiency. I'd rather have a dance with a few mistakes and a lot of fun than a technically perfect but minimalist dance. This attitude may be interpreted by some as refusing to stoop, but that's not really my intention.
Danish Guy
New Member
tacad said:
Yes, it can be intimidating.
My guess is much of the styling is on the backspine. So she has to think about not doing it, more than the other way around. Beside many of the fancy thing the ladies does with their hands, actually give us room to their back or side, without arms getting in the way. Some short thing is over on 123, where the lady often can spice the basic up, and got the room for it.
Then the more fancy stuff. If you drop the lead in a spilt second, she can take it as a hint, that she free to do her stuff.
Then there’s those who seems more interested in showing the latest ladystyling, then to dance with you. If so, try making one of the breaks, where you just stand still as a frame for her, so she can do it while you enjoy the show.
But since you know them, why not ask directly after the dance. It would be interesting to know what they like you do when they style.
Well, maybe not. :lol: From the responses it seems that I'm mistaken.
Just to be clear, I enjoyed the challenge of both dances with the better dancers. I wasn't saying that they not adapting to me was a bad thing. I was thinking it was maybe a good thing to challenge someone to raise the level of their dancing. Just curious. :wink: And perhaps I'm a little over enthusiastic at this point as well. :wink:
Just to be clear, I enjoyed the challenge of both dances with the better dancers. I wasn't saying that they not adapting to me was a bad thing. I was thinking it was maybe a good thing to challenge someone to raise the level of their dancing. Just curious. :wink: And perhaps I'm a little over enthusiastic at this point as well.
:wink:
BrookeErin
New Member
hmmm.... I'm still not sure I know what you mean. I think I do "tone down" for a beginner but I don't "turn off". Often they are so nervous about doing it right that they aren't having fun or about making it fun for me that they aren't having fun. I want them to have fun dancing (and dancing with me), so I want them to know that I don't think dancing with them is some sort of community service. I recently 'taught' a couple of guys how to bachata. We did a basic basic for a few bars, but once I thought I wouldn't throw them off, I started styling a bit and adding the requisite passion. I wasn't backleading, but I know it was more fun for both of us.
tacad, are you really a salsa "beginner"? You may be new to the club scene, but with your dance background etc.... Ask someone you know to point out a couple of "beginners" and make a real comparison. I'm at the intermediate level where I just eat up every chance to dance with someone above my ability. I practically beg them to push me and do my best to not look like I'm running to catch up but to look like I am really dancing. I know one of the more advanced leaders takes time to dance with me regularly and has said it's because he knows I am capable (maybe not there yet, but capable) and he will keep challenging me. I felt really off one night and told him I didn't feel like I knew what he was trying to lead; his reply was simply "good. you made it through" My point, in case it was lost in my ramblings, is that they may see you as someone capable of improving so they are challenging you to dance up to their level... and it's good for you.
tacad, are you really a salsa "beginner"? You may be new to the club scene, but with your dance background etc.... Ask someone you know to point out a couple of "beginners" and make a real comparison. I'm at the intermediate level where I just eat up every chance to dance with someone above my ability. I practically beg them to push me and do my best to not look like I'm running to catch up but to look like I am really dancing. I know one of the more advanced leaders takes time to dance with me regularly and has said it's because he knows I am capable (maybe not there yet, but capable) and he will keep challenging me. I felt really off one night and told him I didn't feel like I knew what he was trying to lead; his reply was simply "good. you made it through" My point, in case it was lost in my ramblings, is that they may see you as someone capable of improving so they are challenging you to dance up to their level... and it's good for you.
alemana
New Member
yeah, i agree that you probably shouldn't overthink it, but at the same time, figuring out and then exploiting the social dynamics of a given dancing scene is pretty interesting, and something all of us social dancers have had to do. some are more interested in it than others.
i'm quite interested in it, but i think my interest is a sign of my own insecurity.
that said, there is a definite hierarchy here in new york. no other follower or leader or teacher has *ever* said to me "here are the rules of the scene, listen carefully, grasshopper" or "you shouldn't ask that guy to dance, he's too advanced" or "don't dance with him, he's below you."
HOWEVER, i have definitely watched, listened and learned and crafted my own set of personal guidelines based on what i believe the expectations of the community to be.
i'm sure others will chime in and say "screw it, i just dance with everybody," but the situation in new york is one of plenty, not scarcity, and i think that drives the 'choosiness' that is expressed in the clubs and socials.
my own are (as an intermediate follower dancing 2 years, 1 of them seriously):
1. i try to dance slightly up most of the time. a 'good' night for me is when i make the rounds of my usual leaders, get to dance with a few new people, and mix challenging dances with fun and comfortable ones. i also try to learn a new shine or two.
2. i don't ask superadvanced leaders to dance unless i've had a class with them or have otherwise made their acquaintence.
3. i'll accept a dance from a superadvanced leader unless i've seen him behaving badly (that can be interpreted a number of ways.)
4. i always accept dances from beginners unless they are really hopeless - can't hear the beat, jerky lead, inappropriate behavior, etc. but that happens very rarely.
5. i always tone it down for them, but throw in some nice easy styling to boost *their* confidence - "look what you made me do, so pretty!" they love that, generally.
6. i *will* ask someone dancing way above my level or doing something painful to bring it down. if they won't, very rarely i will end the dance gracefully.
7. i don't categorize people permanently. a once "hopeless" case CAN come around - lord knows i was once a clueless beginner and i got better, so i try to assume that everyone else can improve too.
8. i don't use beginners as a way to show off how much better i am.
9. i don't correct technique during the dance unless it's really egregious *or* the guy is a regular partner of mine and we have that kind of friendship.
10. i do try to cultivate friendships and little circles of admiration with other followers. we get so focused on finding a good lead in salsa that we often position the other followers as enemies (or "frenemies" in current parlance) and i don't like this. i want a bigger circle of follower friends. at a social on sunday, i asked a woman i know casually from class to show me a shine she'd been doing and she was delighted.
i'm quite interested in it, but i think my interest is a sign of my own insecurity.
that said, there is a definite hierarchy here in new york. no other follower or leader or teacher has *ever* said to me "here are the rules of the scene, listen carefully, grasshopper" or "you shouldn't ask that guy to dance, he's too advanced" or "don't dance with him, he's below you."
HOWEVER, i have definitely watched, listened and learned and crafted my own set of personal guidelines based on what i believe the expectations of the community to be.
i'm sure others will chime in and say "screw it, i just dance with everybody," but the situation in new york is one of plenty, not scarcity, and i think that drives the 'choosiness' that is expressed in the clubs and socials.
my own are (as an intermediate follower dancing 2 years, 1 of them seriously):
1. i try to dance slightly up most of the time. a 'good' night for me is when i make the rounds of my usual leaders, get to dance with a few new people, and mix challenging dances with fun and comfortable ones. i also try to learn a new shine or two.
2. i don't ask superadvanced leaders to dance unless i've had a class with them or have otherwise made their acquaintence.
3. i'll accept a dance from a superadvanced leader unless i've seen him behaving badly (that can be interpreted a number of ways.)
4. i always accept dances from beginners unless they are really hopeless - can't hear the beat, jerky lead, inappropriate behavior, etc. but that happens very rarely.
5. i always tone it down for them, but throw in some nice easy styling to boost *their* confidence - "look what you made me do, so pretty!" they love that, generally.
6. i *will* ask someone dancing way above my level or doing something painful to bring it down. if they won't, very rarely i will end the dance gracefully.
7. i don't categorize people permanently. a once "hopeless" case CAN come around - lord knows i was once a clueless beginner and i got better, so i try to assume that everyone else can improve too.
8. i don't use beginners as a way to show off how much better i am.
9. i don't correct technique during the dance unless it's really egregious *or* the guy is a regular partner of mine and we have that kind of friendship.
10. i do try to cultivate friendships and little circles of admiration with other followers. we get so focused on finding a good lead in salsa that we often position the other followers as enemies (or "frenemies" in current parlance) and i don't like this. i want a bigger circle of follower friends. at a social on sunday, i asked a woman i know casually from class to show me a shine she'd been doing and she was delighted.
If you're leading an advanced follower don't panic if she pulls out those fancy shines. Just try to stay on the beat of the music and let her do her thing. Try to lead her the best you can. I generally don't have problem leading advanced followers because they're easy to lead as long as I stay on the beat. I don't know what it means for an advanced follower to compromise/accomodate a not so advanced leader. On the other hand, for an advanced leader to accomodate a beginner/intermediate follower would entail sticking to simple moves involving single spin; but he should feel free to do his shines if he feels like it.