Salsa Fix - The Day After...

[MapleLeaf Salsero]

Why do I say technique is important? Is easy for one person to be completely at ease and feel and groove to the music. When I am dancing bachata, I often see that the girl I am dancing with will close her eyes and just flow with the music. When I do one of those dips that are just for her, I can see the smile come in her face. Do these moves make me feel like I am expressing my soul? Only when they don't feel like burdens and they come naturally.

Brujo,

I agree with you that good technique can help you reach nirvana more frequently. The reason for this is as you say, it makes you feel more confident in your skills and relaxed freeing your mind from all negative thoughts, worries, fears or concentration on moves/patterns. Nevertheless, I don’t think it’s compulsory for you to get your salsa fix. I’ve seen beginners with poor technique get their fix in ways I never thought possible. Dancing with such feeling and intensity that it brought chills to my spine. Looking intensely into each others eyes during the entire song, minds disappearing into the twilight…

I realise this is rare but it does happen. To be honest, the first time I reached nirvana was when I reached intermediate level. I felt that I had progressed a lot, was getting good feedback from my partners and was starting to let myself go. Before, I was so worried about the patterns, the lead, controlling floor space, etc., that I couldn’t relax and clear my mind for other things. When “it” happened for the first time, I was in a state of awe. Completely bewildered, thinking “What just happened to me?” Is this possible? Of course, I had had great experiences dancing with girls as a beginner, good connection, nice smile, warmth, good sensation, nice song, etc., but nothing that compared to my first nirvana experience. It was like comparing a pleasant sensation to cloud nine or seventh heaven.

This is why I admire certain people who undeniably lack technical skills but still manage to reach nirvana. They transcend themselves by refusing to acknowledge that their lack of technical skills are important. This I cannot do!

Regards,

 

[borikensalsero]

How can we differentiate reaching nirvana, from a strong physical emotional journey? And like brujo said, not do it alone, but taking your partner with you.

For, it must come from both dancers in order for one dancer to allow the self to mesh with the other dancer’s self in order for nirvana to open its doors to a complete journey.

I’m speaking of bypassing all physically felt emotions, the fun, the skill, all the strong physical feelings that turn a good dance into a great one. A dance where the dancer doesn’t know what happened, even deeper, can’t describe it. As salsachinita says, a feeling of total loss of time and space.

How do we know that we have reached nirvana in a dance? As I like to differentiate it with the same as being in love and being infatuated. How do we differentiate? How can absolutely fantastic great sex can turn into absolutely fantastic great love making?

For I truly believe that there is no need for technique of to the least extreme to reach such point. All there needs to be is a instant connection with the other person. Usually felt by a simple hold of hand on way to the dance floor. A connection where hands spark, we feel the energy of the other person blending with ours. Where despite how horrible the lead is, the follower is just as awesome and turns a push and shove lead into call and response session blending as if the leader truly was the beast of leads. To which the next level can only be reached with the company of onlookers during the journey… They cease to have fun, their smile turns to awe, they only stare at your faces, forgetting that there are patterns, moves, leads in the dance, forgetting that there is a dance.

What makes that dance, nirvana-like, and the others marvelously fantastic?

 

[passion]

Learn to dance, then forget you are dancing.

I think you've got something there. Once you get past the part of making sure you have the right steps and being worried about your dancing, that's when it's easier to reach nirvana.

When the dance flows through you, instead of you forcing it out of you, then you open the doors to let the emotions flow between the two of you to reach a higher state together.

I also agree with that it's easier to reach it with someone you love. The challenge is being able to reach it with a partner with whom you only dance. It is possible...

 

[passion]

For I truly believe that there is no need for technique of to the least extreme to reach such point. All there needs to be is a instant connection with the other person. Usually felt by a simple hold of hand on way to the dance floor. A connection where hands spark, we feel the energy of the other person blending with ours. Where despite how horrible the lead is, the follower is just as awesome and turns a push and shove lead into call and response session blending as if the leader truly was the beast of leads. To which the next level can only be reached with the company of onlookers during the journey… They cease to have fun, their smile turns to awe, they only stare at your faces, forgetting that there are patterns, moves, leads in the dance, forgetting that there is a dance.

As salsachinita said earlier... :notworth:

I too, strive to reach that level.

 

[borikensalsero]

For I truly believe that there is no need for technique of to the least extreme to reach such point. All there needs to be is a instant connection with the other person. Usually felt by a simple hold of hand on way to the dance floor. A connection where hands spark, we feel the energy of the other person blending with ours. Where despite how horrible the lead is, the follower is just as awesome and turns a push and shove lead into call and response session blending as if the leader truly was the beast of leads. To which the next level can only be reached with the company of onlookers during the journey… They cease to have fun, their smile turns to awe, they only stare at your faces, forgetting that there are patterns, moves, leads in the dance, forgetting that there is a dance.

As salsachinita said earlier... :notworth:

I too, strive to reach that level.

Salsachinita is passionate, so are you, you haven't been here long and I already see in your posts that you seek a deeper thirst, just like Salsachinita does. A shift on focus will do the trick. Work on your skill to best suit your needs, but never forget that there is something behind skill and desire that roots our passion... That something is what will elevate your skills past perfection into the shapless world of....

 

[MapleLeaf Salsero]

The only time I've reached Nirvana (in the purest form as desicribed by Boriken, ie. his experience to "Idilio") was more than 10 years ago (closer to 15?) when I was still a newbie in salsa.

Really Salsachinta? It took me a long time before I reached it for the first time, but after that, it started to happen to me a lot. I think it was because I started to look at dancing in a different way.

The last time I reached nirvana was a couple months ago with a girl I never expected to. It was a big surprise! She had been dancing salsa long before I came along, and since she only danced with good leads, I never asked her till I felt I was good enough. The first time we danced I got dissapointed - she wasn´t very good. Over the following year I danced with her around 10 times. She was actually quite "cold" as a dancer, rarely smiling, practically no eye contact, etc. One thing I´d notice is that she´d always look to see who was watching her dance. Hmm...

Anyway, several months ago I asked her to dance again (it was a slow salsa) and as always she started to look at who was watching her. I don´t know what hit her, but after about 30 seconds, she started to give me eye contact and completely surrendered to my lead. We never broke eye contact for more than a split second till the end of the song. I don´t know if it was the song, the lighting, the place, whatever, it was one of my best dance experiences ever - from someone I´d never expect it from. :?

The fix is what primarily makes me come back week after week. I think I need one soon. :wink:

 

[danceguy]

For I truly believe that there is no need for technique of to the least extreme to reach such point. All there needs to be is a instant connection with the other person. Usually felt by a simple hold of hand on way to the dance floor. A connection where hands spark, we feel the energy of the other person blending with ours.

Boriken,

This is exactly what happened to me the one time I found nirvana on the dance floor. There was a lady I had met during the first hour lesson (at a ballroom dance), and as soon as our hands met for the first time...something happened that I can't find the words to describe (I've been trying for 10 minutes but have come up blank!).

She was so mellow and centered within herself, and I could "feel" her on many levels, and I can only hope that she felt the same from me. Although I found her quite attractive, what I felt from her was beyond mere physical beauty...for I had looked into the eyes of a kindred soul.

I can't even remember what we danced that night, but I do know that there was a Salsa. What I do remember is dancing 3 or 4 dances in a row...but they all felt like one. It was the first and only time I have danced with a follower that was so effortless to lead...and despite her being far more advanced than me this didn't matter at all.

I don't know what went on around us or even the time of day, I just remember her presence, and the sensation of feeling totally connected like one person as we danced.

Come to think of it, I can't even remember her name...but I will never forget the person...she was someone very special... :wink:

SG

 

[brujo]

Sure, a normal person can hit a home-run once in a while, but he will not hit a home-run as consistently as a professional baseball player that practices and works on his batting. On the same token, the home-run hitter will never always hit a home-run.

I am not suggesting that technique is the end all and catch all of all troubles. Read my previous post, it is just one of many aspects that are going to affect the way you dance. I honestly don't understand why there is this absurd fear of technique. Knowing a little floorcraft, comfortable leading and where to put your hands to create a stronger connection will not make you into a salsa robot. Far from it, it is going to help you on the dance floor as it will make you less of a liability.

To borrow a term from improv, there are three ways you can connect with someone: verbally, physically and emotionally. Dancing, in the most part, is a physical conversation. What I am suggesting is that by working on your technique, you can figure out ways to bypass this physical conversation and make it deeper. What you guys think as Nirvana, the perfect moment, or whatever, is just a moment when you are lost in the dance, when you body doesn't realize that it is dancing anymore. Like that groove that you can get into when writting, or drawing, or fixing a car, or programming a computer. Where the next move just comes naturally, without thought, without effort.

So there we go. A physical connection that is magnified eventually becomes an emotional connection. Where the sadness of a trumpet player, the patriotism of a conga player, the melancholy of the singer or the joy of the pianists leaves the music and is translated into movement by the dancers. To reach this state, you need to trust each other, trust the music, and trust yourself. Technique is not the bridge between simply moving your body and nirvana, but it is one of the stepping stones.

 

[borikensalsero]

I agree with you brujo that if we are planning to dance a “formal” dance there need be technique involved, otherwise, there is no formal dance, ala Mambo NY City style, or Cuban style. To achieve such feats we need technique, and as you have mentioned, the more technique the better the dancer. It is a fact of dance, likewise, it in itself doesn't not lead to robot-like dancing as you alluded to. What leads to robot like dancing, even for those who get lost in the dance is dancing without ever breaking free from the technical world (Physical world), but less so for those who managed to get an emotional connection even without breaking out of the technical world.

I think differently of nirvana, if it was in itself getting lost in the dance, then every skilled dancer would have witnessed so from a flawless dance. However, I can't compare my one and a million flawless dances, where I have been totally lost, with the ones that surpass flawless even when they are filled with mistakes, yet reach a plateau that those other dances haven't. Repeat motion leads to the brain stopping to consciously communicate with the body, however, we don't say that a person has reached walking nirvana because he is fluid in his walk as well as is daydreaming where he doesn't know where he is, or even what he is thinking. He is in a moment but not connected. What I believe you speak of is what runners and the sport world refers to as, The ZONE. When a person is in a zone, he sees everything before it happens, he doesn’t realize what he is doing, yet still does it superbly, and the connection he has to his immediate surroundings seems flawless. Where as Nirvana you are the ball, the player, the game, teammates, expectations, the cheers, the boos, you become everything, and everything ends up being a sense of deep love.

What differentiates the ZONE from Nirvana is a deep sense of self, filled with absolute love, which is directly shared by everyone in relative contact with the person, but you share not only you but the world itself. The Zone gives a person a feeling of self but it lacks love, and connection to that beyond its means, it can even lack the participation of those around.

We will never hear a person refer to the ZONE as being in deep love, or an emotional feeling that actually lasts for a couple of days and even weeks. When a person is in Nirvana, their heart fills so much with love that it actually hurts when you’re coming out of it (at least to me). We can feel the other person without touching them. We can hear the other person speak without the use of words, we are so connected as dancers that there is an actual pull and interchange of energy within each other. Physical lead isn’t necessary because both dancers have become one and will, as long as they are in nirvana, act as one. Not because of physical lead and follow but because they are actually one dancer sharing two bodies but using one soul to guide movement. Our soul simply doing its work of balancing us as part of everything.

Do I agree that it helps a person reach nirvana, if and only if the person truly believes so. For dancing from the soul can only come out when the brain is good and ready, and if technique is what the person needs to bridge the soul to the dance floor, then, indeed we will need technique.

It isn’t whether a person hits a homerun or how often, but will he to allow a strikeout to feel like a homerun with bases loaded. For it isn’t the result that matters but what the person feels while doing it. If I think a homerun is pleasure I will never feel pleasure for knowing that I have a chance to stand there and swing at the ball, for soulful meaning isn’t dependant on result.

 

[brujo]

I agree with you brujo that if we are planning to dance a “formal” dance there need be technique involved, otherwise, there is no formal dance, ala Mambo NY City style, or Cuban style.

As opposed to what? Grab two people on the street and have them dance and see how well they gell together?

You are entitled to your own views. In my book, there is no difference between what you refer to as the Zone and Nirvana. Why not? Because of the deep emotional investment in dancing. You are not just dancing for yourself or for a crowd. There is one other person that you are sharing and interpreting this feeling for. Because of the other person involved, the dynamics are absolutely different than running a marathon or tai-kwan do.

The difference between religion and philosophy is that philosophy does not hide under absolute power words like the soul and love and dancing from the heart. Sure, they are both powerful emotional triggers. The soul is something pure, beyond the body. The heart, oh, that's where love comes from and a million valentine cards are minted from. Wanna look deeper? Tough luck, because that is as far as these definitions go to.

What makes us want to connect with another person? On the dancefloor? What drives us to seek out one another and engage in such movements to the music? Why does the bible say dance and praise the lord? Why is movement such an essencial part of the Yoruba / Orishas religion? God / Nirvana / blah is not trapped in dance, but you can get a taste of it through dance. Whatever. No more religion talk. My brain hurts.

 

[borikensalsero]

Religion has not place in this entire dance philosophy we are speaking of. It is about what we think of dancing and its stages. To put it into better light, and hopefully clearer…

A flawless person = The Zone = Confucius’ belief of a perfect acting person can be no more than a perfect person, hence, he didn’t believe in anything passed a flawless human.

An enlightened soul = Nirvana = Tao’s views of something beyond the physical ala Buddha, Jesus, and Mohammad. And a dancer who has taken Confucius like physical feats, such as technique and transcend it to Tao like dancing with the water flowing.

That is the difference; you brought it up before but have failed make the distinction between Confucianism and Taoist thinking. You know a difference is there but have yet to make the distinction.

Difference between 2 people that don’t know how to mambo and 2 that do? One couple grooves and moves to the music with no specific purpose but to move and enjoy the music, as opposed to the other performing the same grooving but within the lines of its pertaining dance art form, with the objective to depict the form to the best of their abilities, as well as enjoying the dance.

 

[brujo]

Religion has not place in this entire dance philosophy we are speaking of. It is about what we think of dancing and its stages. To put it into better light, and hopefully clearer…

A flawless person = The Zone = Confucius’ belief of a perfect acting person can be no more than a perfect person, hence, he didn’t believe in anything passed a flawless human.

An enlightened soul = Nirvana = Tao’s views of something beyond the physical ala Buddha, Jesus, and Mohammad. And a dancer who has taken Confucius like physical feats, such as technique and transcend it to Tao like dancing with the water flowing.

That is the difference; you brought it up before but have failed make the distinction between Confucianism and Taoist thinking. You know a difference is there but have yet to make the distinction.

Difference between 2 people that don’t know how to mambo and 2 that do? One couple grooves and moves to the music with no specific purpose but to move and enjoy the music, as opposed to the other performing the same grooving but within the lines of its pertaining dance art form, with the objective to depict the form to the best of their abilities, as well as enjoying the dance.

Alright! Math notation!

Technique != Mambo Technique

I love it when you make up new words. What next? The confusian zone and the tao zone? The salsa Atkins?

If you believe that technique is absolutely useless, it's up to you. You're entitled to your opinion. But don't distort my words to match your ideas. I will say it again. It's not about flawless technique or musicality or whatever, but having all those things will help you connect better with the music and your partner because your own comfort level is going to increase. Your view is hit and miss, whenever this mysterious soul will decide to express itself, then the magic will happen. It's too new age for me man.

I suggest that there are things that you can do to become more comfortable with the dance and each other. It's not a surefire formula, and some dances are going to suck. But by exploring ways to lead better, ways to communicate better and ways to interpret the music better, you can get in touch with that aspect of your spirit that thrives to soar.

 

[borikensalsero]

Yes, there is such a thing as Mambo technique, just like there is Cuban Technique... One of the first things taught to a woman, in NY City style, is not to have spaghetti arms. Equal pressure, etc, etc, etc. For the man, Cuban dancing roots in holding her by the waist, where as in NY City Mambo, it’s hold her by the shoulder blade... Different techniques for different dances…

I never said that technique is useless, all I said is that it isn't needed to reach a point you label zone and I don't. Any person who has ever had the experience to feel both will tell you that they are indeed, different. I speak from experience from both sides, The Zone, and reaching a Nirvana-like state in a dance. They by no means felt the same, and why I stress difference. To me is like tasting a Red Delicious and a McIntosh apple and conclude that they taste the same because they are apples. When in fact they don’t taste the same, and aren’t the same.

Comfort has nothing to do with technique, nor musicality, but the individual himself, the brain. Feeling good in your own skin while doing something has nothing to do with what a person knows, but how they feel about themselves. It is a head game to which people really think that knowing more means reaching higher grounds, and a feel better because I’m doing things like I’m supposed to. However technique, and experience will allow us to dance Cuban Style and NY style better. I can't and won't deny the fact that the more you know the more you can do in a dance.

I don't dismiss that your views are correct that a person expresses a particular dance much better and more efficient, through technique. That is why we all seek training. The more I know about a given style the better I will dance it. However, it has nothing to do with how deep the feeling of being in that dance will be, what it has done is cover up insecurities we shouldn’t have to begin with, at which time you say we can allow the spirit to soar, but some never get there, because they really think that the zone is the ultimate goal.

You speak of dancing facts like Confucius spoke of the way a man should lead life. Always in search of being a better person by means of doing things better that eventually the person becomes a super man. A man gliding through the world doing things better than before, without thinking about it, for all a super man can do is great things for himself and others. I am not twisting and turning your words, they speak for themselves. Ways of doing physical things for better result all belong to Confucius-like thinking, there is no getting around that. Where as Tao-like, anything is already better.

I simply say that there is something further than being in a zone, having a better lead, or better communication, and that despite how proficient a person becomes at them, it will not allow them to reach a higher perspective of the self in a dance. If the dancers don’t surpass the feeling of, “I need to know more to begin to get in touch with myself”, more will never get there regardless of how much a person knows, for they’re are seeking the soaring of the spirit by means it doesn’t care for. All it takes to reach a nirvana-like state is to be in tune with ourselves, so much so that regardless what you do, it will come out because you have allowed it.

Now, that you look better dancing Cuban style while being there, I’ll give you that. If you reach nirvana dancing Cuban style, and I don’t know Cuban style but dance it and reach the same feeling, then you will look much better than me, that is, using Cuban style as a measure to look good.

I can't disagree with your view nor dismiss them, they are facts, and I understand where you are coming from, seeking better ways and techniques in a dance will always make us better dancers, and allow some to break through comfort level that is a times absent.