Standard for judging competitions?

[lucia_l]

Several of students at my new to me studio were discussing entering competitions. One fairly new dancer wanted to know what the standard for judging were, and those of us who competed once or twice Bronze admitted we didn't entirely know. We had various different notions-- for example, one student thought how nice your outfit was counted explicitly, I thought it probably fell more in the category of judges are human, so looking the part helps.

We all talked about having heard different judges look at different things and value different things. (Which I've had a well respected judge tell me as well. His view was that was fine, he was glad to know there were always several judges. I tend to agree with this view in judging anyway.)

I know people here will likely know what the official standards are and what factors are not officially criteria but count neverthless. Hoping people can tell me which are which!

 

[fiesta0618]

You cannot win on the basis of merely looking sharp, but a sloppy look can get you written off. Ditto for things like a good floor entrance or a pleasant facial expression.

In general, your movement is what is nominally judged, but there are a lot of other factors that can be counted for or against you

 

[Mengu]

Depending on the organization, there are different qualifications to become a judge (and in some instances to remain a judge). But otherwise, there is not much of a standard for evaluation, though judges look for similar things. The organization can make recommendations which are adhered to by some judges, but not necessarily all. Short of the matter is, if a competition organizer is hiring a judge, they are hiring that person for their opinion, and opinions will vary. Best to hear them from the horse's mouth:

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www.youtube.com

top 9 results there are worth a listen. Those interviews are kind of old now, but still relevant I think.

 

[bia]

This video has been shared here before; I bet it would be informative for the new competitors: Toni Redpath on what she looks for when judging. There are interviews with other judges, too: Emerald Ball interviews. (ETA: great minds...)

 

[tangotime]

The organization can make recommendations which are adhered to by some judges, but not necessarily all.

Short of the matter is, if a competition organizer is hiring a judge, they are hiring that person for their opinion, and opinions will vary. Best to hear them from the horse's mouth:

In all my years judging I have never been approached in any form to influence my decisions , and that is with Chain schools and independent organisers .

 

[lucia_l]

Thanks! The links to the videos were great. It's clear grooming and outfits matter quite a bit.

 

[Mengu]

In all my years judging I have never been approached in any form to influence my decisions , and that is with Chain schools and independent organisers .

I believe it. Only reason I mentioned that is because in the interviews, judges brought up they are asked to judge the student in single dance events and the couple in championship/scholarship events. Some do, some don't.

 

[lucia_l]

Mengu,

... they are asked to judge the student in single dance events and the couple in championship/scholarship events.

I hadn't know this was "the rule" so it was interesting to learn it! I'd been under the mistaken impression that at bronze level they were supposed to judge the student only in both.

Having said that, I always figured the teacher's ability still mattered to my outcome. Without regard to any rules of judging, I do know is that at my level (lower level of Bronze) it is simply easier for me to do all the things I am supposed to do when the lead dances well and doesn't make mistakes leads on my level make! I'm not going to pretend my frame, self-locomotion and everything are terrific with my pro. But when I dance with my husband (also low level Bronze) it is harder for me to hold my frame and so on. My husband also has a harder time doing certain things well with me compared to doing it with a teacher. Basically: if I do something poorly, it affects him and vice-versa.

So I suspect that if I compete with a skilled partner vs. a less skilled one, then judges who see me with a skilled partner will likely see me as a better student dancer than otherwise.

I also know there must be some limit to how much a better lead can improve my performance. I'm pretty sure that at my level, I'll dance no better with this year's world champion than with a solid teacher who competes pro-pro well enough to periodically win in local competitions. So I'm not going to try to boost my score by hiring the world champion to dance pro-am with me even though I strongly suspect he's just dying to have me contact him and ask

 

[fineshrine]

When it comes to outfits and grooming. Is doing your own hair and make up (tidy and with lots of effort) and wearing a dress that costs say £500 from a less well known designer going to be enough? When people say "grooming is important" do they mean "a clean dance bun with not a hair out of place" or "get your hair done by a professional with a ton of finger waves and little details."

 

[raindance]

When it comes to outfits and grooming. Is doing your own hair and make up (tidy and with lots of effort) and wearing a dress that costs say £500 from a less well known designer going to be enough? When people say "grooming is important" do they mean "a clean dance bun with not a hair out of place" or "get your hair done by a professional with a ton of finger waves and little details."

A lot depends on what sort of competition you are entering. What country? What organization? What level? Professional, Pro/Am, or Amateur? Age group (kids, collegiate, adult, senior...)? And what are your goals?

Your teachers/coaches should be able to give you some guidance. If you haven't competed before, it's good to do a dress rehearsal at your studio for your teacher(s) if you can arrange that. You can also go and watch some events similar to the one(s) you will be entering, and get a good idea that way.

Just one dancer's opinion, I'm not a teacher or judge, and only have experience in my own local area ... In general, I think if you want your grooming to be neutral or a positive for the judges, you need to be somewhere between the middle and top of what everyone else is doing at your level/age/circuit. If you just want to participate in an event, and not feel out of place, then look around and see where your comfort level is for that.

If you are newish and at a lower level, definitely don't break your budget just on grooming (hair/makeup/dress/jewelry) ... spend your money on lessons and practice and decent shoes first. The rest can come later, if you want and can afford it. A clean dance bun with not a hair out of place is a good starting place. Whether more is needed or required to make the sort of impression you'd like to make is another matter.

 

[fineshrine]

I guess I was mainly thinking about pro ams, and I am in the UK. Do judges think "well she cares more about dancing and takes it more seriously" if you turn up in a vesa? I feel like it's just an indication that you have more money. Even second hand they're far beyond my reach, and if you do get a second hand one are you just thinking "well the judges know it's second hand, so they're going to take those who bought them new more seriously?"

 

[Mengu]

If you don't look like you care, it works against you. But otherwise, if you look well put together, I don't think how much money you pour into the dance industry matters too much for placements. It probably leads to recognition which matters some. Recognition may get you a callback or two. But it won't win you a championship. I know some A ladies who take practically free lessons, compete a handful of times a year at minimal cost, wear donated dresses, do their own hair, and place well or win.

 

[fineshrine]

If you don't look like you care, it works against you. But otherwise, if you look well put together, I don't think how much money you pour into the dance industry matters too much for placements. It probably leads to recognition which matters some. Recognition may get you a callback or two. But it won't win you a championship. I know some A ladies who take practically free lessons, compete a handful of times a year at minimal cost, wear donated dresses, do their own hair, and place well or win.

This is about how I thought it worked. There is a certain standard you have to adhere to (if you show up with messy nails, ill fitting dress missing stones, inappropriate make up and unsprayed/gelled hair then fair enough, someone should have a word with you, these things are things anybody can sort out) but it IS possible to do these things yourself so long as you know what you're doing. My teacher gets me to dress smartly and elegantly to arrive to competitions just in case I happen to make some sort of impression that way so I get how hair splitting it can become as a judge.

The expensive dress thing is hard because realistically, a cheaper designer can't make a dress as high quality as a DSI, Chrisanne, Vesa etc. But as you say, if I danced against yulia and she wore practice wear, and I wore a designer dress - there is no comparison, the dresses will not come into it. If I was dancing against someone very very similar to me, then the look will matter more as the judges need something to separate you with, and a beautiful designer dress is more aesthetically pleasing than a lower end dress so the person in the high end dress just looks better overall. Dancing is an aesthetic thing after all.

That's my take on it any way. I'd really love to know what judges think, and what even their unconscious biases are.

EDIT: Fishnet tights being a must is news to me. Is that a cultural thing more prevalent in the states? In the UK I don't see that many people wearing them at all.

 

[lucia_l]

I know some A ladies who take practically free lessons, compete a handful of times a year at minimal cost, wear donated dresses, do their own hair, and place well or win.

How do they get practically free lessons and find someone to donate them a dress? Are these people who created a reputation when they were young?

 

[lucia_l]

The expensive dress thing is hard because realistically, a cheaper designer can't make a dress as high quality as a DSI, Chrisanne, Vesa etc.

I sew a little (not ballroom gowns!) Some things a cheap designer could do as well as an expensive designer-- others not. But the designer need to understand the goal. Just like with hair, experience with ballroom requirements is going to matter.

Watching the pro-shows at local competitions, I've been watching how fabric moves. Every type of fabric moves differently. So, the designer really needs to understand what is going to "float" or "whip" around and why. The other thing, bad placement of stones can really detract.

One of the dresses at Crystal Ball looked beautiful when the dancer was standing. It had heavy stones near the wrist end of bell sleeves, so even though those might of fluttered, they did not. Also, the main dress was worn over some sort of chiffon that peaked out. Chiffon can really fly. But I suspect the fabric of the main dress was too heavy to really lift even though the dancer did move. (Online will list grams/meter of fabric. ) So basically, the dress tended to be sort of "static" even though the dancer was moving.

There were only two couples competing, and I do think the others moved better. BUT that dress did NOT help the woman wearing it. It gave the impression she wasn't really moving.

I'm making practice wear out of various available fabrics to judge how they move. . . (Eventually I might make myself a dress.)

EDIT: Fishnet tights being a must is news to me. Is that a cultural thing more prevalent in the states? In the UK I don't see that many people wearing them at all.

I didn't see any fishnets at the Crystal Ball, Harvest Moon or Windy City in Chicago. I danced bronze-- but even at the pro show, I didn't see fishnets.