Standard Geekery

My wobble is likely to be a lead to place the right foot in a slightly different place in preparation for brushing the left foot rather than crossing in front,
To me, then that's not a wobble. As follow I need to be able to recognize the difference between an intentional change and a wobble. Wobbles happen, even to the best. As Cal suggests, I want to "ignore" wobbles and maintain the figure, frame, and timing if at all possible.

Especially with my Pro, who's lead and frame I know the best, I should be able to feel that distinction between a wobble and a legit lead. Where I struggle is "late" leads - that is, intentional leads that happen a little late - maybe not "really" late, but I've already committed, in my head, to a different figure or timing.
 
Okay, I guess this is the geekery thread, after all.

The bombshell, iirc, is a double reverse spin followed by both partners doing a ronde.

Not exactly. The modifications start before the end of the double reverse spin: either the lady takes one step less - the original way when Eggleton and Winslade invented it - or the lady takes one extra step - the "cheaty" way. By the end of the first bar, both partners have weight on their respective right feet, allowing a simultaneous left leg rondez by both. The adjustments to lady's steps' timing also affect their positioning, of course.

Given this, I think you can see that following the full unmodified double reverse spin would preclude doing the bombshell properly the original way. I suppose it might just be possible still to do the "cheaty" way by adding a step to the double reverse spin using, say, 123&a timing instead of 123&, but that still might be a bit iffy.

If you wobble on step 2, regardless of what happens after my steps 3&4, in my case, I would feel your wobble was throwing me off my steps 3&4. And that you were falling over. And that you needed my partnering skills to help you stabilize. Because taking care of the partner is something both partners do.

When I've done this the original way, I've wobbled slightly in the middle of step 2 by leaning slightly to my right, causing the lady to lean slightly to her left and compensate by reaching further around with her right foot for her step 3. I then don't lead and she then doesn't take her step 4, and we end up solidly over our right feet ready to rondez our left legs.

A follower expecting a double reverse spin would, I suspect, feel this was "throwing off" her step 3.

There might be a more elegant way to lead this, but unfortunately Brenda is no longer around to experiment with. I did try this on my coach once - a student of Brenda's - and it worked the original noncheaty way with the following conversation ensuing:

Me: "I thought you said you did it the cheaty way."
Her: "Well, if you lead it!"

That sort of suggests the cheaty way is the result of a lack of a lead, perhaps allowing the lady to complete a regular double reverse spin before taking that extra step.

I do not understand this statement.

two footfalls over three beats, I'd have thought: beat 1, step; beat 2, step; beat 3, close without weight

During the leader's step 2, the following footfalls occur:

- leader steps forward on the right toe, becoming a side step due to the rotation, on beat 2.
- follower closes left foot in a heel turn on beat 2, simultaneously with the leader's step.
- follower steps sideways on the right toe, on beat 3 if you use the 123& timing that I use.
- follower crosses in front with the left toe, eventually lowering, on the final & half beat.

The first two are not independent, because the leader's step 2 is leading the heel turn, so that only counts as one independent footfall. The other two footfalls are independent. Thus, three independent footfalls.

If I, as leader, am properly managing the couple's combined body weight, I should also be managing all the couple's footfalls. Thus, I'm managing all three of these independent footfalls, over beats 2 and 3, which is two beats.

I find it much easier to lead when I have a follow to manage. Lacking a real live follow, I have to work with the Invisible Dance Partner, which is good but not *as* good. I have to imagine manipulating the follow's weight.

Yes. Invisible partner contributes no real weight to the partnership to manage, but also contributes no real foot and leg strength to help manage it.

To me, then that's not a wobble. As follow I need to be able to recognize the difference between an intentional change and a wobble. Wobbles happen, even to the best. As Cal suggests, I want to "ignore" wobbles and maintain the figure, frame, and timing if at all possible.

My contention is that if the follower doesn't know the figure and timing being led, it may be quite difficult to distinguish between an intentional and an unintentional wobble. I still want to be able to lead the figure, though, and not have to default to a different figure the follower does know. The best way to do this, in my opinion, is for the follower to follow all wobbles, rather than try to distinguish between those that are leads and those that aren't.
 
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I’ve got so many waterfall if-this-then-that scenarios about this swishing in my brain, that I’m not sure if I can explain my thoughts. But I’ll try:

So, as Lead, maybe I intend to lead the Bombshell and not a Double Reverse Spin, but I lose balance and wobble a bit. If Follow follows my wobble, then it’s very possible that I won’t recover in time to complete anything other than the Grinding Halt. OK, Grinding Halt is what I unintentionally lead, and everyone can blame the Lead and give kudos to Follow for following the Grinding Halt - but we’re both still stalled, and somehow we have to readjust alignment and restart and not looked inelegant and annoyed as we do so.

BUT, if Follow doesn’t follow my wobble and keeps balance, frame and posture and completes rotation of a DRS, well then, maybe it wasn’t what Lead intended to lead, but it still can work to keep the flow going. If part of what the Lead is supposed to do is to “follow” what the Follow does – well, then, Follow in that instance “finishes” a DRS, helping to place the couple in an alignment/direction that the Lead has a chance to continue from. So, if I can “follow” the Follow’s DRS, we can still carry on and look elegant and happy. Maybe it’s not what I had initially intended or hoped to lead. But it’s not an unreasonable outcome, in my opinion.
 
And the ping-pong stuff going on in my brain continues:

If the Lead is supposed to first lead and then “follow” what the Follow does, well, then if the Follow unexpectedly loses balance and wobbles, is the Lead supposed to “follow” the Follow’s wobble? Or is the Lead in that instance supposed to assist in “fixing” it and NOT really follow the Follow’s wobble?:confused:

And if the Lead isn’t supposed to follow a Follow’s wobble, then is it a double standard if the Follow is supposed to follow a Lead’s wobble rather than assist in fixing it?:confused::confused:

I'd just like to avoid the Grinding Halt, whether I'm Lead or Follow.

(Geez, it’s like a tongue-twister!)
 
So, as Lead, maybe I intend to lead the Bombshell and not a Double Reverse Spin, but I lose balance and wobble a bit. If Follow follows my wobble, then it’s very possible that I won’t recover in time to complete anything other than the Grinding Halt. OK, Grinding Halt is what I unintentionally lead, and everyone can blame the Lead and give kudos to Follow for following the Grinding Halt - but we’re both still stalled, and somehow we have to readjust alignment and restart and not looked inelegant and annoyed as we do so.

You go off balance before or after you start to lead the bombshell?

I ask because a grinding halt is not a typical failure mode for the bombshell, perhaps because there is so much angular momentum in the figure. Failures usually result in a bad rondez. Interestingly, the rondez usually ends up looking bad in the same way for the leader and follower; I think this is for physics reasons - conservation of energy and momentum - rather than for lead and follow reasons.

On the other hand, if it's "very possible" that a double reverse spin will result in a grinding halt, I'd suggest you have no business intending to lead a bombshell in the first place. It would be like trying to ride a bicycle when one is still falling off one's tricycle. Figure out the tricycle first.

I do also want to note that the coach I was doing the bombshell with was a Blackpool professional semifinalist who had at least once subbed for Brenda Winslade when Brenda had become unavailable at the last minute for a show with Peter Eggleton. I don't know if that show included the bombshell, but it's not an easy figure by any means.

And if the Lead isn’t supposed to follow a Follow’s wobble, then is it a double standard if the Follow is supposed to follow a Lead’s wobble rather than assist in fixing it?:confused::confused:

Without opining on how the leader should follow the follower's wobble, yes, it's a double standard. Having a designated leader and a designated follower is inherently a double standard. Part of that double standard is that the leader knows what figure is intended, and the follower has to try to figure it out from the connection. That's a fact of life, in ballroom.

I'd just like to avoid the Grinding Halt, whether I'm Lead or Follow.

I consider a grinding halt a perfectly acceptable outcome in social dancing or practice. We did something wrong, we should figure it out and fix it next time. That's how we learn.
 
I’ve got so many waterfall if-this-then-that scenarios about this swishing in my brain, that I’m not sure if I can explain my thoughts. But I’ll try:

So, as Lead, maybe I intend to lead the Bombshell and not a Double Reverse Spin, but I lose balance and wobble a bit. If Follow follows my wobble, then it’s very possible that I won’t recover in time to complete anything other than the Grinding Halt.
I laughed so hard I spit Pellegrino all over myself.
 
You go off balance before or after you start to lead the bombshell?

I ask because a grinding halt is not a typical failure mode for the bombshell, perhaps because there is so much angular momentum in the figure. Failures usually result in a bad rondez. Interestingly, the rondez usually ends up looking bad in the same way for the leader and follower; I think this is for physics reasons - conservation of energy and momentum - rather than for lead and follow reasons.

On the other hand, if it's "very possible" that a double reverse spin will result in a grinding halt, I'd suggest you have no business intending to lead a bombshell in the first place. It would be like trying to ride a bicycle when one is still falling off one's tricycle. Figure out the tricycle first.

I do also want to note that the coach I was doing the bombshell with was a Blackpool professional semifinalist who had at least once subbed for Brenda Winslade when Brenda had become unavailable at the last minute for a show with Peter Eggleton. I don't know if that show included the bombshell, but it's not an easy figure by any means.



Without opining on how the leader should follow the follower's wobble, yes, it's a double standard. Having a designated leader and a designated follower is inherently a double standard. Part of that double standard is that the leader knows what figure is intended, and the follower has to try to figure it out from the connection. That's a fact of life, in ballroom.



I consider a grinding halt a perfectly acceptable outcome in social dancing or practice. We did something wrong, we should figure it out and fix it next time. That's how we learn.
I was envisioning the Lead wobbling before the Bombshell. I will admit that I've only danced the Bombshell as Follow, not as Lead. Now I've got something to explore at my next lesson.

The Grinding Halt as a learning tool. Yes, I can see its utility. Sigh - I use it so often that you'd think I should be learning really fast!:rolleyes:
 
I was envisioning the Lead wobbling before the Bombshell. I will admit that I've only danced the Bombshell as Follow, not as Lead. Now I've got something to explore at my next lesson.

There are lots of ways to go off balance in the bombshell itself. Exploration is great, but it may be difficult to dance it successfully until one's double reverse spin is solid.
 
Not exactly. The modifications start before the end of the double reverse spin: either the lady takes one step less - the original way when Eggleton and Winslade invented it - or the lady takes one extra step - the "cheaty" way. By the end of the first bar, both partners have weight on their respective right feet, allowing a simultaneous left leg ronde by both. The adjustments to lady's steps' timing also affect their positioning, of course.


Given this, I think you can see that following the full unmodified double reverse spin would preclude doing the bombshell properly the original way. I suppose it might just be possible still to do the "cheaty" way by adding a step to the double reverse spin using, say, 123&a timing instead of 123&, but that still might be a bit iffy.
So, 12&3& is the "cheaty" way. Gotcha. Yeah, that's a cheat to get onto the proper foot for the same foot ronde, but it works and has to be easier to lead than stopping the DRS while the follow is on the right foot -- talk about feeling like I'd run into a wall, speaking as the follow in question.
When I've done this the original way, I've wobbled slightly in the middle of step 2 by leaning slightly to my right, causing the lady to lean slightly to her left and compensate by reaching further around with her right foot for her step 3. I then don't lead and she then doesn't take her step 4, and we end up solidly over our right feet ready to ronde our left legs.

A follower expecting a double reverse spin would, I suspect, feel this was "throwing off" her step 3.
That sort of suggests the cheaty way is the result of a lack of a lead, perhaps allowing the lady to complete a regular double reverse spin before taking that extra step.
That doesn't sound like a bad thing -- a cheat is often a useful tool. It's a pity the word is so loaded with negative connotations.
During the leader's step 2, the following footfalls occur:

- leader steps forward on the right toe, becoming a side step due to the rotation, on beat 2.
- follower closes left foot in a heel turn on beat 2, simultaneously with the leader's step.


If I, as leader, am properly managing the couple's combined body weight, I should also be managing all the couple's footfalls. Thus, I'm managing all three of these independent footfalls, over beats 2 and 3, which is two beats.
not interested in 3 and after, just step 2; you said, "During the man's second step of the double reverse spin, weight is taken by four different footfalls" and that is what I didn't understand.
My contention is that if the follower doesn't know the figure and timing being led, it may be quite difficult to distinguish between an intentional and an unintentional wobble. I still want to be able to lead the figure, though, and not have to default to a different figure the follower does know. The best way to do this, in my opinion, is for the follower to follow all wobbles, rather than try to distinguish between those that are leads and those that aren't.
I think we have different definitions of "wobble." Sounds to me like your step 2 leaning to the right is more like the kind of ronde that we with tight hips do before we learn not to, where we lean to the opposite side to give our ronde-ing leg room to move. To me, a wobble is arriving unsteadily on the foot and having to correct my balance on that foot by, y'know, moving my weight around until I'm more solid over that foot. Aka wobbling. Baby.

 
So, 12&3& is the "cheaty" way.

That's the term used to describe that way to me by two separate coaches, both Eggleton disciples, one of whom used it to refer to how she herself danced it, as in "I do it the cheaty way". I just use the terminology I was taught; if other sides of the pyramid use or used different terminology I'm interested in hearing it.

Yeah, that's a cheat to get onto the proper foot for the same foot ronde, but it works and has to be easier to lead than stopping the DRS while the follow is on the right foot -- talk about feeling like I'd run into a wall, speaking as the follow in question.

The rotation keeps going; there's no "stopping" there. The follower "just" has to be led to place the right foot around more so she doesn't have to cross in front to stay on balance with the continued rotation.

not interested in 3 and after, just step 2; you said, "During the man's second step of the double reverse spin, weight is taken by four different footfalls" and that is what I didn't understand.

The man's step 2 of the double reverse turn is taken with the right foot on beat 2 of the bar, but the weight remains there for beats 2 and 3 - and in the bombshell, for the following beat 1 as well. Step numbers and beat numbers are different things, at least in the technique book, and I follow the technique book for, uh, "clarity".

I think we have different definitions of "wobble." Sounds to me like your step 2 leaning to the right is more like the kind of ronde that we with tight hips do before we learn not to, where we lean to the opposite side to give our ronde-ing leg room to move.

We may have different definitions of "wobble" - mine includes intentional "moving my weight around on that foot" - but just to be clear to third parties, what I'm talking about has nothing to do with the later rondez in the bombshell, though it may have some of the same body mechanics as other rondez' that don't appear in that figure.

I believe it's technically (this is the Standard Geekery thread, after all) a split ronde.

What are the technical terms for the other types of rondez - the one where only the lady swings her leg around, or only the man, and the one where both partners do, but with opposite legs in opposite rotational directions instead of with the same leg?
 
I don’t think this is a word. In French, “rendez” means appointment. “Rond” means round; “rond de jambe” is a classical ballet term meaning a circular movement of the leg. The NDCA rulebook uses the terms “ronde” and “rondes” (e.g., ronde chasse, ronde/developé, aerial rondes, low rondes).

The only words in the NDCA rulebook using the letters “ez” are freeze & freezes. (There are, of course, lots of other words in there that use the letter “z,” such as bronze, Suzie Q’s, standardize, cruzados, waltz, zig-zag, organizer, prize, recognized, size, utilize, authorize, etc.)

#PNPneedsahobby
 
I don’t think this is a word. In French, “rendez” means appointment. “Rond” means round; “rond de jambe” is a classical ballet term meaning a circular movement of the leg. The NDCA rulebook uses the terms “ronde” and “rondes” (e.g., ronde chasse, ronde/developé, aerial rondes, low rondes).

Some of us are too lazy to use accents aigu and substitute other things.
 

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