Styles anyone

[mshedgehog]

The part of her article that I found most interesting were

Friends of mine that have been to BsAs have informed me and Argentinian teachers I have experienced in the UK do tend to use hand or arm leads when a European teacher would teach use of the body. Is this other peoples experience?

To some degree (UK), yes. Usually quite minimal in practice, though, as my experience goes. By which I mean it's not actually significant when dancing socially - it's not different or seperate from what the rest of the body is doing. As far as my own experience goes.

we do not want to open the embrace for turns, >> I wonder why this is so.

Just a matter of taste. I have the same preference (strongly). It's not at all necessary, and I don't like it. In that kind of embrace, it feels like being kicked out of bed for farting. But some have a different preference.

[Musicality] Can anybody explain what she means by this?

Not really sure, it might be a reference to events that I'm not aware of, try a comment on the blog. But some people have surprisingly specific ideas about what parts of the music you should dance to and what you should not, and how: there's nothing wrong with this, every teacher should give you what they believe, but then you have to decide whether you agree with it or not before you make your own decision about the relationship between ears and movement! Broadly, I think that's the implication.

I like the intent of this.

So do I. It works, incidentally.

 

[Steve Pastor]

Nuevo dancing was the reaction on Nuevo music

ToTango Fabian Salas
and Fabian Salas interview Part 2

Everyone should be able to find this url when this subject comes up.
I always google "Fabian Salas interview", or the like.

I can't find any reference to any reaction to nuevo as a style of music.
Rather, it was an exploration in how to dance tango that later had the nuevo tag slapped on it.

If anyone reads the interview and finds otherwise, please point that out to me.

I'd be interested, too, in knowing where this idea came from.

 

[Steve Pastor]

Teachers deconstruct, reconstruct and analyse continuously. They have to be able to communicate their view (a view?) of tango.

Sure, and there is nothing wrong with that. But,

"No, no, no!"

"And in the meanwhile, a new annoying process of labelling took place."

These statements, as someone has already pointed out, come across as... well, you decide. And we might not feel the same way about it.

Until someone establishes a rule making body that can control Argentine Tango on a global basis, ala "DanceSport", the labeling will continue to change, as may tango itself, or at least what are the most popular forms of tango.

 

[AndaBien]

My first teacher often said, "There are no rules in tango." If that's true, and I think it is, then there are certainly no rules about discussing tango.

 

[JohnEm]

ToTango Fabian Salas
and Fabian Salas interview Part 2

Everyone should be able to find this url when this subject comes up.
I always google "Fabian Salas interview", or the like.

I can't find any reference to any reaction to nuevo as a style of music.
Rather, it was an exploration in how to dance tango that later had the nuevo tag slapped on it.

If anyone reads the interview and finds otherwise, please point that out to me.

I'd be interested, too, in knowing where this idea came from.

Quote, again from Wikipedia I'm afraid:

Ástor Pantaleón Piazzolla (March 11, 1921 – July 4, 1992) was an
Argentine tango composer and bandoneón player. His oeuvre revolutionized
the traditional tango into a new style termed nuevo tango, incorporating elements
from jazz and classical music.

This was coined long before Naveira, Salas and Frumboli adopted the name.
Piazzolla even had an ensemble called The New Tango Quintet.

The sleeve notes of the Zero Hour album confirm Piazzolla and his quintet
pushing the boundaries of Nuevo Tango in the period 1960 to 1970.

Piazzolla's later quintet called The New Tango Quintet formed in 1978
and lasted many years perhaps peaking with Zero Hour. He also recorded
an album with Gary Burton called New Tango.

 

[JohnEm]

Very true, and something else I've been told by several, the style existed long before someone gave it a name (like most stuff in tango).

And actually for once I agree with you here!
So to return the compliment -
:cheers:

More seriously, however it developed and whoever danced it first,
it is a style that has been adopted by class teachers because I believe,
rightly or wrongly, that it is a style that lends itself to class type teaching.

And many students of that teaching think that is the only way to dance
tango. Heck I've even had partners change their "embrace" and insist
I give them a toned left arm to match their right. In fact I have little
choice otherwise my arm might be pushed way back behind my shoulder!

The chest connection is almost gone, replaced by an outboard connection
and the amplification of the lead by toned arms. But that is just my opinion
and it isn't how I want to dance.

Partly because of it being taught by so many teachers to so many students,
the accusation of homogeneity is made. All clones of one another.
Though that is not the only reason as I think the style itself is restrictive
of real variation, musicality and improvisation.

I'm reasonably sure that many on here and elsewhere would disagree
though I do speak from experience of dancing some of the different styles.

 

[Steve Pastor]

Nuevo
... was coined long before Naveira, Salas and Frumboli adopted the name.

When did they adopt the same name ? That term does not seem to appear in the interview.

Q
"Then what do we call what you are doing... Tango Nuevo?"
A
"No. Argentine Tango."

 

[Zoopsia59]

The chest connection is almost gone, replaced by an outboard connection
and the amplification of the lead by toned arms. But that is just my opinion
and it isn't how I want to dance.

For once we agree!

I am finding that even if I wanted to make chest contact, I can't because the leaders so often hold their left hand (arm) somewhat in front of them. If I try to take a flat on position, my right arm will be behind my shoulder.

The only way (that I can figure) for a flat-on embrace to be comfortable for both partners is for the leader to hold his hand more or less in line with his shoulder. (certainly no more than a few inches forward) Any more forward than that, and it pushes the follower's arm back uncomfortably. (of course, the same would be true for the follower pushing the leader's arm back, but IME, followers don't exert as much pressure as leaders) Perhaps well endowed followers get a little more leeway in where their shoulders are in relation to the part of their chest making contact. For some of us though, that's pretty much in a line!

I even know a few leaders who want to dance flat-on CE, but I end up with a sore arm because they push their own so far forward. It's not a case of me just not returning their pressure because even if I did, their arm position doesn't change. And I shouldn't have to be exerting a lot of force in my right arm in that embrace anyway.

So between the leaders who expect a V embrace and position their left arm accordingly, and the ones who don't expect it, but can't keep their arm from coming too far forward no matter how much I resist, I end up dancing V a lot more than I'd like to.

 

[ant]

...it is a style that has been adopted by class teachers because I believe, rightly or wrongly, that it is a style that lends itself to class type teaching..

I appreciate where you are coming from but I think both styles lend themselves to class type teaching it is just I think that OE sequence style teaching requires a lot less specific tango knowledge to teach a class compared to CE teaching. I think both require the same level (albeit maybe different) of knowledge of technique but CE requires so much more knowledge of the music to teach properly and many teachers do not have that knowledge.

And many students of that teaching think that is the only way to dance tango.

I think some prefer to dance that way, especially younger people.

Heck I've even had partners change their "embrace" and insist
I give them a toned left arm to match their right. In fact I have little
choice otherwise my arm might be pushed way back behind my shoulder!

I find by dropping my left arm so they have nothing to push against, they hopefully get the message.

The chest connection is almost gone, replaced by an outboard connection and the amplification of the lead by toned arms.

I have to say my experience does not match your observation. I have found CE to be the norm in the places I go to but maybe our ideas of CE are different. For instance from your posts I know you go to Eton, do you not find that to be a CE environment, although the connection within the embrace is variable?

I'm reasonably sure that many on here and elsewhere would disagree
though I do speak from experience of dancing some of the different styles

Personally I like to dance CE, OE or an interchanging embrace, whatever I feel my partner wants but I personally have no problem with your preference for CE only, which also seems to be the preference for most if not all the other posts.

 

[jantango]

After reading Melina's post yesterday, I decided to view their most recent video in Italy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0uYx_CyNMtk&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

My observations of these tango de salon teachers dancing for an audience of social dancers:

1. They enter the floor like dancers who perform, not social dancers.
2. The embrace is unusual for social dancers, more common among nuevo dancers. His left hand is above his head. Hers is in many positions except the normal embrace.
3. They pause which causes problems on a social floor.
4. They lift their feet off the floor to do kicks, a no-no on the social floor.
5. They change lanes; social dancers have to stay in a lane.
6. Most of their walking is directly down the line of dance; it's impossible on most social floors where men progress by stepping to the left, which they never do.
7. They dance opposite the line of dance.


Conclusion: They are a mixture of styles from their training. They like to perform, ignore all dance floor rules, and expect their students to become good social dancers in spite of their example.

 

[JohnEm]

Nuevo
... was coined long before Naveira, Salas and Frumboli adopted the name.

When did they adopt the same name ? That term does not seem to appear in the interview.

Q
"Then what do we call what you are doing... Tango Nuevo?"
A
"No. Argentine Tango."

OK Steve, slight misunderstanding of what you intended (it was late after
a rather long tiring day!) and I hadn't reread the interviews and still
don't intend to as I have no interest in the Nuevo movement except
listening to some of the music. So my Piazzolla reference is irrelevant.

Until someone establishes a rule making body that can control Argentine Tango on a global basis, ala "DanceSport", the labeling will continue to change, as may tango itself, or at least what are the most popular forms of tango.

If there was a rule making body, tango would probably be locked into a
limited number of describable, teachable styles. Nuevo almost certainly
these days would be one but if the rules had existed then, would Nuevo
ever have been developed? (Don't answer, it's rhetorical.)

But otherwise, it's a yes to this. And does it matter when the Nuevo tag
happened? The Salas interviews are 10 years old now and time moves on.
Chicho Frumboli has in recent times expressed a regretful view of what
the three did to tango though he seems to show no signs of any practical
expression of that regret.

Labelling is clearly a problem the World over and it depends on people's
perceptions. If you dance to tango music some insist it's tango.
But Nuevo contradicts the evidence of our eyes and what we feel
if danced that way. Here whenever you mention Tango, people will
either think you mean ballroom tango or, because of Strictly,
Vincent & Flavia's show tango.
Queue: a boringly repetitive explanation of what & how we dance.

The simplistic purist traditional description of what we do is
if we dance to traditional tango music we tango,
to Nuevo we Nuevo, to Neo (non-tango music) we Neo etc., etc.
But it is an inadequate and incomplete explanation.

 

[opendoor]

.. To me it sounds like nuevo came first, and the the Neo style came after that. Is that more or less how you see it?

Exactly, so I (we) do understand Neo. If you ask a guy: how does x or y dances like, the answer Neo will remove all ambiguities.

..over here, all of that is called nuevo.

It sounds a little bit as if nuevo was kind of something between a unsophisticated combat or abusive term.. ? that makes shudder to think of. Not to speak of dancing like that....

So how does nuevo music compare to neotango, over there?

In this case it is the other way round: Neo is a clear term, Nuevo is a bit unclear. For me Nuevo music is late Pugliese, Rovira, Piazzolla. Nuevo dancing is an offshoot of stage/fantasia tango for normal dancers, leading to the style of Gustavo Naviera. But in contrary to Neo, Nuevo is a bit unclear, because there is a continum towards neo, fantasia, and Salón.

..This was coined long before Naveira, Salas and Frumboli adopted the name. Piazzolla even had an ensemble called The New Tango Quintet.

But this is no contradiction to what I said, isn´t?

.

 

[JohnEm]

I appreciate where you are coming from but I think both styles lend themselves to class type teaching it is just I think that OE sequence style teaching requires a lot less specific tango knowledge to teach a class compared to CE teaching. I think both require the same level (albeit maybe different) of knowledge of technique but CE requires so much more knowledge of the music to teach properly and many teachers do not have that knowledge.

Ant, there's a slight confusion here perhaps.
I wasn't talking about any sort of open hold (you know I refuse to call
anything open an embrace) but VU which results in a slight Vee-shaped,
usually upright posture with arm connections. People are insisting it fits
within the close embrace genre but it's a moot point.

I find by dropping my left arm so they have nothing to push against, they hopefully get the message.

And some are then "all at sea" and insist on the strong arm.
The only solution is to give in, abandon any sort of chest connection and
take up a vertical posture. And usually don't repeat the experience!

I have to say my experience does not match your observation. I have found CE to be the norm in the places I go to but maybe our ideas of CE are different. For instance from your posts I know you go to Eton, do you not find that to be a CE environment, although the connection within the embrace is variable?

Ah Eton! Recommended but don't tell those folks in London as that would
be its ruination. Yes, the connection there is variable, too variable arguably
so I have to choose with care but there are partners I know there.
The selection process is the same wherever I go anyway.

Personally I like to dance CE, OE or an interchanging embrace, whatever I feel my partner wants but I personally have no problem with your preference for CE only, which also seems to be the preference for most if not all the other posts.

Yes it is, chest connection and NO ARMS! They aren't needed.
I have been known to occasionally dance with no embrace of my arms
at all (a milder, more discreet version of Tete's aeroplane) but you need
a good partner or at least one you know is willing to try it.

 

[Dave Bailey]

Conclusion: They are a mixture of styles from their training. They like to perform, ignore all dance floor rules, and expect their students to become good social dancers in spite of their example.

Surely you could say exactly the same thing about most performances by most couples?

 

[dchester]

It sounds a little bit as if nuevo was kind of something between a unsophisticated combat or abusive term.. ? that makes shudder to think of. Not to speak of dancing like that....

Certainly to some, but I wouldn't say most here feel that way. There tends to be 3 (or for some people 4) broad categories of tango: Salon, Nuevo, and Stage (or fantasia). Some people (here) consider milonguero style to be part (a subset) of salon like I do, while others separate it out from salon, as a 4th category (then leaving salon to be more like VU).