Styles anyone

[Temza]

How old is "older"? I'm just curious, because nothing like that happened when I was there.

The women were in their late 50s-early 60s I think, my husband is 50 but looks much younger.
This is my 8th time in BA in the last 5 years, and my husband's 2nd. Nothing like that happened to us/me before, nor did I hear about anything like this before. Hence my puzzlement.
IMO, the interpretation of the music in a dance is a far more important style-defining factor that the type of embrace or moves. I am inclined to answer my own question: yes, there is a style of tango, practiced mainly by old-timers in BA, when the leader is expected to lead the follower on every beat. (and I have to correct my previous posts: the leader does not have to step on every beat, but he leads the follower to step on every beat, or leads double-time steps)

 

[AndaBien]

... yes, there is a style of tango, practiced mainly by old-timers in BA, when the leader is expected to lead the follower on every beat...

Expected? What does that mean?

I had a personal relationship with an old timer. He's not dead yet. He no longer dances, but he was well recognized as a dancer. He did not dance as you describe. That is not to refute that some other dancers did dance as you describe.

If you mean to say that because some dancers danced a particular way that defines a style, well, okay.

 

[opendoor]

..the interpretation of the music in a dance is a far more important style-defining factor that the type of embrace or moves.

Hi Temza, yes and no. Yes because every style of music brings a certain feeling along, and a recognizable way of dancing. No, because those dancer that prefer the rhythmic interpretation of that afore said tango style always prefer a tight non-flexible hold and constrain to a rather poor repertoir. Among musicians there is a never ending discussion whether to address the rhythmic tango variant as tango-milonga or tango bravo. I adopted the term tango bravo, though I for myself would rather prefer tango duro . There must also be an older thread about the question, why tango bravo is written in 2/4 instead of the tango-common 4/4 signiture, though the feeling recalls the 4/4 marching atmosphere. This could also make you understand the origins of that tight apilado hold, it may stem from that milonga hold and milonga leading principle, which is actually really different from the leading in Tango de Salón.

yes, there is a style of tango, practiced mainly by old-timers in BA...

No Temza, unfortunately it has got nothing to do with the generation. It is a question of attitude. You can find those rhythmic afficionados in either generation. I call it the hard core fraction. They have a narrow understanding of what tango should look like, feel like and sound like. They haven´t realized the said change to what we now call Tango de Salón, nor even the change to nuevo, to say nothing of neotango. You can find this people in every town, every forum, every continent. They belong to us. And their life is much more easier, because their universe is so clear and neatly arranged.

 

[JohnEm]

The whole point is that the follower needs to be ready to go wherever the leader next indicates. If she can't do that because of her leg position, then there's a problem. The problem isn't that her leg isn't collected. The lack of foot collection may or may not present a problem... the problem in your scenario is that she isn't ready to go anywhere he might lead. "Anywhere" includes a weight transfer in place.

Obviously if she can't do an in place weight transfer because of where her leg is, she probably can't go some other directions as well. I'd say she also can't do an inplace weight transfer while she's embellishing either, therefore it still is up to her to gauge the time she has for her own thing unless she's very adept at getting somewhere quickly once led.

Yes to all of this.

There is a certain amount of "likelihood" when it comes to what a leader will or won't do at any given time. I'm trying (unsuccessfully) to think of someone leading multiple small weight transfers in place mixing that with the sort of style that lends itself to what I'm talking about with trailing and sweeping. Typically a decent follower can sense based on the leader's use of movement up to that point whether it will be a small subtle dance or a large sweeping dance, especially if they've danced together before.

All part of the subtle art of following.

Just because I said it's possible doesn't mean it's appropriate all the time or that it's something I would try with an unknown leader. But it works rather nicely with some "alternative tango" types.

My Bold.

I wouldn't know!!!!

 

[bordertangoman]

Well my view is a little different. You might think that your body is unaffected by reaching with your leg but in the embrace your body
would tell me that it is reacting to balance your leg movement.

I teach that; if the follower keeps her leg muscles reasonably relaxed then extends her leg, the leader can feel it so he knows she has responded to his invitation to step and so he can follow her. the lead-follow-follow approach. One of the nicest dances I had was with a lady in Cambridge and her abdominals were talking to mine, and she was dropping her hip to extend her leg reach behind so it turned into a really creamy connected dance.

then you can start to play with cut steps so you give the impetus to step then arrest it so the folowers leg goes but the weight doesnt.

 

[JohnEm]

Hi Temza, yes and no. Yes because every style of music brings a certain feeling along, and a recognizable way of dancing. No, because those dancer that prefer the rhythmic interpretation of that afore said tango style always prefer a tight non-flexible hold and constrain to a rather poor repertoir.

You start well and end badly. Most, if not all dances, evolve with and from
their music, sometimes the music is itself influenced by the changing dance,
ballroom tango music being a reasonably clear example.

It isn't a hold, it's an embrace. The repertoire doesn't need to be poor,
nor in fact does there need to be a repertoire at all.

Among musicians there is a never ending discussion whether to address the rhythmic tango variant as tango-milonga or tango bravo. I adopted the term tango bravo, though I for myself would rather prefer tango duro . There must also be an older thread about the question, why tango bravo is written in 2/4 instead of the tango-common 4/4 signiture, though the feeling recalls the 4/4 marching atmosphere. This could also make you understand the origins of that tight apilado hold, it may stem from that milonga hold and milonga leading principle, which is actually really different from the leading in Tango de Salón.

Different lead in today's idea of Tango de Salon maybe because of its
perpetration Worldwide. Back in the day today's generally accepted
interpretation was just one of many Tango Salon styles and coexistent
with the then unnamed milonguero.

No Temza, unfortunately it has got nothing to do with the generation. It is a question of attitude. You can find those rhythmic afficionados in either generation. I call it the hard core fraction. They have a narrow understanding of what tango should look like, feel like and sound like. They haven´t realized the said change to what we now call Tango de Salón, nor even the change to nuevo, to say nothing of neotango. You can find this people in every town, every forum, every continent. They belong to us. And their life is much more easier, because their universe is so clear and neatly arranged.

You'd be surprised then how un-narrow a more rhythmic tango
within the embrace can be. To make something of it is
much more challenging to both partners than Nuevo.
And, frankly, much more satisfying.

But each to their own, just not on the same floor please.
Nuevo is a different dance with different and conflicting dynamics.

And I thought we were smoking the pipe of peace!!!

ok?​

NB. Thanks dchester.

 

[JohnEm]

I teach that; if the follower keeps her leg muscles reasonably relaxed then extends her leg, the leader can feel it so he knows she has responded to his invitation to step and so he can follow her. the lead-follow-follow approach. One of the nicest dances I had was with a lady in Cambridge and her abdominals were talking to mine, and she was dropping her hip to extend her leg reach behind so it turned into a really creamy connected dance.

then you can start to play with cut steps so you give the impetus to step then arrest it so the folowers leg goes but the weight doesnt.

Nice one. It's partly an indication of just how simple this dance seems
yet can be such a complex interplay of the partners, provided those
partners have the physicality and the senses to make it work.

You, your partner and the music. The outsiders will never see it.

 

[Dave Bailey]

The women were in their late 50s-early 60s I think, my husband is 50 but looks much younger.
This is my 8th time in BA in the last 5 years, and my husband's 2nd. Nothing like that happened to us/me before, nor did I hear about anything like this before. Hence my puzzlement.

Well, you clearly just encountered a couple of rude people. Ignore, move on, I'd say.

 

[Nathan]

There are a lot of different usages for different terms in tango, but your idea of what adornments are, seem different from any I've ever heard. According to everyone else I've ever talked to, a sacada is a type of step. Now as a result of the leader doing a sacada, it might encourage the follower to do some type of embellishment, but the embellishment is not the sacada.

The most typical argument about adornments or embellishments is about whether they can be led (a boleo could fall into that category), but I've never heard someone claim a sacada was an embellishment before.

Huh. :kitty:

Perhaps "alterations" would be a better term for them then, but the distinction is somewhat unclear to me. Under the standard definition of an embellishment/adornment, the follower (or less commonly, the leader) changes the quality of their own movement in some way to better fit the music. How is this any different from a leader changing the quality of his follower's movement, say, by interrupting it? Or a follower changing the quality of a leader's movement by slowing him down? The lead/follow relationship is so complicated, especially among high level dancers, that I don't feel like it can be broken down into these neat categories without losing important elements in the process.

In my view, there are forward steps, backward steps, side steps, pivots, and the pause — everything else is derived from changing the quality of one of these somehow, or by adjusting one's body position when doing them. To get more technical, the gancho is not a step, but an embellished/altered (and laboriously set-up...) form of the pause. The boleo is also a pause, and the sacada is a step (front, back, or side) with a little bit of energy added to it.

 

[Dave Bailey]

Under the standard definition of an embellishment/adornment, the follower (or less commonly, the leader) changes the quality of their own movement in some way to better fit the music.

Sounds about right.

How is this any different from a leader changing the quality of his follower's movement, say, by interrupting it?

Because that's a led movement. It's not something the follower decides to do independently. It's quite an important difference.

Or a follower changing the quality of a leader's movement by slowing him down?

Similarly, because there's interaction involved.

The lead/follow relationship is so complicated, especially among high level dancers, that I don't feel like it can be broken down into these neat categories without losing important elements in the process.

But that's the entire point - adornments are not part of the lead/follow relationship.

In my view, there are forward steps, backward steps, side steps, pivots, and the pause

I'd add "change of weight" also, and possibly an exception for a cross step, but yes, that seems 's about right.

— everything else is derived from changing the quality of one of these somehow, or by adjusting one's body position when doing them.

Sounds about right also.

To get more technical, the gancho is not a step, but an embellished/altered (and laboriously set-up...) form of the pause.

Umm, no. At least, not in my opinion. The gancho is not something that the follower should decide to do.

In my opinion, the gancho is a follower step, which is interrupted by the leader's leg. This interruption creates a hook motion for the follower's leg.

I could be wrong, of course.

The boleo is also a pause,

Again, the boleo is an interrupted step - but with the interruption being led by the leader's body, the follower's leg simply swings out in the direction of the step that's led.

I really don't think there's a pause involved...

and the sacada is a step (front, back, or side) with a little bit of energy added to it.

The sacada is a normal step, but taken towards the partner body, so displacing the follower / leader's leg. I'm not sure that a sacada needs any extra energy...

 

[opendoor]

.. thought we were smoking the pipe of peace..

The differences are not insurmountable, so lets get on with smoking..

 

[Peaches]

Sounds about right.


Because that's a led movement. It's not something the follower decides to do independently. It's quite an important difference.


Similarly, because there's interaction involved.


But that's the entire point - adornments are not part of the lead/follow relationship.


I'd add "change of weight" also, and possibly an exception for a cross step, but yes, that seems 's about right.


Sounds about right also.


Umm, no. At least, not in my opinion. The gancho is not something that the follower should decide to do.

In my opinion, the gancho is a follower step, which is interrupted by the leader's leg. This interruption creates a hook motion for the follower's leg.

I could be wrong, of course.


Again, the boleo is an interrupted step - but with the interruption being led by the leader's body, the follower's leg simply swings out in the direction of the step that's led.

I really don't think there's a pause involved...



The sacada is a normal step, but taken towards the partner body, so displacing the follower / leader's leg. I'm not sure that a sacada needs any extra energy...

Thank you, Dave, for taking the time to say pretty much exactly what I was thinking. I agree completely. Nathan, I'm sorry, but I more-or-less completely disagree with how you look at things. (Which isn't to say that actual dancing would be a problem.)

 

[bordertangoman]

To get more technical, the gancho is not a step, but an embellished/altered (and laboriously set-up...) form of the pause. The boleo is also a pause, and the sacada is a step (front, back, or side) with a little bit of energy added to it.

I cant see how you can say that either of these is a pause; a gancho and a boleo are both emphatic fast movements; hook and return, or rebound or displace. Pause implies slowing down and stopping.neither boleo or gancho nned this in fact the opposite; it creates a small amount of acceleration in the followers leg.

 

[dchester]

Huh. :kitty:

I'm not clear if you are trying to call me a [kitty], or what the point of the smilie is.

Perhaps "alterations" would be a better term for them then, but the distinction is somewhat unclear to me. Under the standard definition of an embellishment/adornment, the follower (or less commonly, the leader) changes the quality of their own movement in some way to better fit the music. How is this any different from a leader changing the quality of his follower's movement, say, by interrupting it? Or a follower changing the quality of a leader's movement by slowing him down?

By this definition, it would then follow that going from a quick step to a slow step would be an embellishment. In any case, I don't agree with this definition.

The lead/follow relationship is so complicated, especially among high level dancers, that I don't feel like it can be broken down into these neat categories without losing important elements in the process.

I believe that it was Einstein who was said, if you can't explain it, then you don't understand it well enough.

In my view, there are forward steps, backward steps, side steps, pivots, and the pause — everything else is derived from changing the quality of one of these somehow, or by adjusting one's body position when doing them. To get more technical, the gancho is not a step, but an embellished/altered (and laboriously set-up...) form of the pause. The boleo is also a pause, and the sacada is a step (front, back, or side) with a little bit of energy added to it.

Generally speaking, there are foot movements, weight changes, and pivots. You appear to be defining a pause by the lack of weight changes by the follower, (since the leader certainly can take steps when leading a boleos). If I'm understanding you correctly (which I'm not at all sure), then a calesita would also be considered a pause by you.

In any case, the most common definition of an embellishment is some additional foot movement(s) that the follower (or leader) chooses to add in, that fit in with what is being led. These additional foot movements are not typically (or by some definitions never) led.

Ganchos and boleos are supposed to be led, so most people don't consider them to be embellishments, although some embellishments can be done with either of these moves (additional stuff that is not led). A sacada is quite different from any of this, as it's just a normal step with the only required difference being the location of the step. One may choose to use more energy when doing a sacada, but it's certainly not required.

 

[newbie]

I cant see how you can say that either of these is a pause; a gancho and a boleo are both emphatic fast movements; hook and return, or rebound or displace. Pause implies slowing down and stopping.neither boleo or gancho nned this in fact the opposite; it creates a small amount of acceleration in the followers leg.

While disagreeing with Nathan, I think the idea is you can, with adequate leading, freeze a boleo or a gancho and stay frozen for four beats and then resume dancing. And so, a not-frozen boleo can be seen a a very short pause. But you cannot freeze a sacada, it would become something else, a tomada or parada.