Styles anyone

JohnEm

Well-Known Member
Hi Temza, yes and no. Yes because every style of music brings a certain feeling along, and a recognizable way of dancing. No, because those dancer that prefer the rhythmic interpretation of that afore said tango style always prefer a tight non-flexible hold and constrain to a rather poor repertoir.
You start well and end badly. Most, if not all dances, evolve with and from
their music, sometimes the music is itself influenced by the changing dance,
ballroom tango music being a reasonably clear example.

It isn't a hold, it's an embrace. The repertoire doesn't need to be poor,
nor in fact does there need to be a repertoire at all.

Among musicians there is a never ending discussion whether to address the rhythmic tango variant as tango-milonga or tango bravo. I adopted the term tango bravo, though I for myself would rather prefer tango duro . There must also be an older thread about the question, why tango bravo is written in 2/4 instead of the tango-common 4/4 signiture, though the feeling recalls the 4/4 marching atmosphere. This could also make you understand the origins of that tight apilado hold, it may stem from that milonga hold and milonga leading principle, which is actually really different from the leading in Tango de Salón.
Different lead in today's idea of Tango de Salon maybe because of its
perpetration Worldwide. Back in the day today's generally accepted
interpretation was just one of many Tango Salon styles and coexistent
with the then unnamed milonguero.

No Temza, unfortunately it has got nothing to do with the generation. It is a question of attitude. You can find those rhythmic afficionados in either generation. I call it the hard core fraction. They have a narrow understanding of what tango should look like, feel like and sound like. They haven´t realized the said change to what we now call Tango de Salón, nor even the change to nuevo, to say nothing of neotango. You can find this people in every town, every forum, every continent. They belong to us. And their life is much more easier, because their universe is so clear and neatly arranged.
You'd be surprised then how un-narrow a more rhythmic tango
within the embrace can be. To make something of it is
much more challenging to both partners than Nuevo.
And, frankly, much more satisfying.

But each to their own, just not on the same floor please.
Nuevo is a different dance with different and conflicting dynamics.

And I thought we were smoking the pipe of peace!!!


NB. Thanks dchester.
 

JohnEm

Well-Known Member
I teach that; if the follower keeps her leg muscles reasonably relaxed then extends her leg, the leader can feel it so he knows she has responded to his invitation to step and so he can follow her. the lead-follow-follow approach. One of the nicest dances I had was with a lady in Cambridge and her abdominals were talking to mine, and she was dropping her hip to extend her leg reach behind so it turned into a really creamy connected dance.

then you can start to play with cut steps so you give the impetus to step then arrest it so the folowers leg goes but the weight doesnt.
Nice one. It's partly an indication of just how simple this dance seems
yet can be such a complex interplay of the partners, provided those
partners have the physicality and the senses to make it work.

You, your partner and the music. The outsiders will never see it.
 
The women were in their late 50s-early 60s I think, my husband is 50 but looks much younger.
This is my 8th time in BA in the last 5 years, and my husband's 2nd. Nothing like that happened to us/me before, nor did I hear about anything like this before. Hence my puzzlement.
Well, you clearly just encountered a couple of rude people. Ignore, move on, I'd say.
 
There are a lot of different usages for different terms in tango, but your idea of what adornments are, seem different from any I've ever heard. According to everyone else I've ever talked to, a sacada is a type of step. Now as a result of the leader doing a sacada, it might encourage the follower to do some type of embellishment, but the embellishment is not the sacada.

The most typical argument about adornments or embellishments is about whether they can be led (a boleo could fall into that category), but I've never heard someone claim a sacada was an embellishment before.
Huh. :kitty:

Perhaps "alterations" would be a better term for them then, but the distinction is somewhat unclear to me. Under the standard definition of an embellishment/adornment, the follower (or less commonly, the leader) changes the quality of their own movement in some way to better fit the music. How is this any different from a leader changing the quality of his follower's movement, say, by interrupting it? Or a follower changing the quality of a leader's movement by slowing him down? The lead/follow relationship is so complicated, especially among high level dancers, that I don't feel like it can be broken down into these neat categories without losing important elements in the process.

In my view, there are forward steps, backward steps, side steps, pivots, and the pause — everything else is derived from changing the quality of one of these somehow, or by adjusting one's body position when doing them. To get more technical, the gancho is not a step, but an embellished/altered (and laboriously set-up...) form of the pause. The boleo is also a pause, and the sacada is a step (front, back, or side) with a little bit of energy added to it.
 
Under the standard definition of an embellishment/adornment, the follower (or less commonly, the leader) changes the quality of their own movement in some way to better fit the music.
Sounds about right.

How is this any different from a leader changing the quality of his follower's movement, say, by interrupting it?
Because that's a led movement. It's not something the follower decides to do independently. It's quite an important difference.

Or a follower changing the quality of a leader's movement by slowing him down?
Similarly, because there's interaction involved.

The lead/follow relationship is so complicated, especially among high level dancers, that I don't feel like it can be broken down into these neat categories without losing important elements in the process.
But that's the entire point - adornments are not part of the lead/follow relationship.

In my view, there are forward steps, backward steps, side steps, pivots, and the pause
I'd add "change of weight" also, and possibly an exception for a cross step, but yes, that seems 's about right.

— everything else is derived from changing the quality of one of these somehow, or by adjusting one's body position when doing them.
Sounds about right also.

To get more technical, the gancho is not a step, but an embellished/altered (and laboriously set-up...) form of the pause.
Umm, no. At least, not in my opinion. The gancho is not something that the follower should decide to do.

In my opinion, the gancho is a follower step, which is interrupted by the leader's leg. This interruption creates a hook motion for the follower's leg.

I could be wrong, of course.

The boleo is also a pause,
:confused: Again, the boleo is an interrupted step - but with the interruption being led by the leader's body, the follower's leg simply swings out in the direction of the step that's led.

I really don't think there's a pause involved...

and the sacada is a step (front, back, or side) with a little bit of energy added to it.
:confused::confused:
The sacada is a normal step, but taken towards the partner body, so displacing the follower / leader's leg. I'm not sure that a sacada needs any extra energy...
 

Peaches

Well-Known Member
Sounds about right.


Because that's a led movement. It's not something the follower decides to do independently. It's quite an important difference.


Similarly, because there's interaction involved.


But that's the entire point - adornments are not part of the lead/follow relationship.


I'd add "change of weight" also, and possibly an exception for a cross step, but yes, that seems 's about right.


Sounds about right also.


Umm, no. At least, not in my opinion. The gancho is not something that the follower should decide to do.

In my opinion, the gancho is a follower step, which is interrupted by the leader's leg. This interruption creates a hook motion for the follower's leg.

I could be wrong, of course.


:confused: Again, the boleo is an interrupted step - but with the interruption being led by the leader's body, the follower's leg simply swings out in the direction of the step that's led.

I really don't think there's a pause involved...


:confused::confused:
The sacada is a normal step, but taken towards the partner body, so displacing the follower / leader's leg. I'm not sure that a sacada needs any extra energy...
Thank you, Dave, for taking the time to say pretty much exactly what I was thinking. I agree completely. Nathan, I'm sorry, but I more-or-less completely disagree with how you look at things. (Which isn't to say that actual dancing would be a problem.)
 

bordertangoman

Well-Known Member
To get more technical, the gancho is not a step, but an embellished/altered (and laboriously set-up...) form of the pause. The boleo is also a pause, and the sacada is a step (front, back, or side) with a little bit of energy added to it.
I cant see how you can say that either of these is a pause; a gancho and a boleo are both emphatic fast movements; hook and return, or rebound or displace. Pause implies slowing down and stopping.neither boleo or gancho nned this in fact the opposite; it creates a small amount of acceleration in the followers leg.
 

dchester

Moderator
Staff member
I'm not clear if you are trying to call me a [kitty], or what the point of the smilie is.

Perhaps "alterations" would be a better term for them then, but the distinction is somewhat unclear to me. Under the standard definition of an embellishment/adornment, the follower (or less commonly, the leader) changes the quality of their own movement in some way to better fit the music. How is this any different from a leader changing the quality of his follower's movement, say, by interrupting it? Or a follower changing the quality of a leader's movement by slowing him down?
By this definition, it would then follow that going from a quick step to a slow step would be an embellishment. In any case, I don't agree with this definition.

The lead/follow relationship is so complicated, especially among high level dancers, that I don't feel like it can be broken down into these neat categories without losing important elements in the process.
I believe that it was Einstein who was said, if you can't explain it, then you don't understand it well enough.

In my view, there are forward steps, backward steps, side steps, pivots, and the pause — everything else is derived from changing the quality of one of these somehow, or by adjusting one's body position when doing them. To get more technical, the gancho is not a step, but an embellished/altered (and laboriously set-up...) form of the pause. The boleo is also a pause, and the sacada is a step (front, back, or side) with a little bit of energy added to it.
Generally speaking, there are foot movements, weight changes, and pivots. You appear to be defining a pause by the lack of weight changes by the follower, (since the leader certainly can take steps when leading a boleos). If I'm understanding you correctly (which I'm not at all sure), then a calesita would also be considered a pause by you.

In any case, the most common definition of an embellishment is some additional foot movement(s) that the follower (or leader) chooses to add in, that fit in with what is being led. These additional foot movements are not typically (or by some definitions never) led.

Ganchos and boleos are supposed to be led, so most people don't consider them to be embellishments, although some embellishments can be done with either of these moves (additional stuff that is not led). A sacada is quite different from any of this, as it's just a normal step with the only required difference being the location of the step. One may choose to use more energy when doing a sacada, but it's certainly not required.
 

newbie

Well-Known Member
I cant see how you can say that either of these is a pause; a gancho and a boleo are both emphatic fast movements; hook and return, or rebound or displace. Pause implies slowing down and stopping.neither boleo or gancho nned this in fact the opposite; it creates a small amount of acceleration in the followers leg.
While disagreeing with Nathan, I think the idea is you can, with adequate leading, freeze a boleo or a gancho and stay frozen for four beats and then resume dancing. And so, a not-frozen boleo can be seen a a very short pause. But you cannot freeze a sacada, it would become something else, a tomada or parada.
 

Zoopsia59

Well-Known Member
But that's the entire point - adornments are not part of the lead/follow relationship.
Exactly. Part of the definition of embellishments and adornments is that they do NOT affect the other partner at all. At least, that's the definition everyone I know goes by. Maybe in your community the accepted use of the terms is different, but judging from the replies here, I'd say you and/or your community is using the terms differently from most.

It is possible for a leader to be aware that a follower is doing a specific embellishment and make use of it for his next led move, but that's a different scenario. For instance, if I do a right over left "beat" and quickly unwind to step back on my right while walking, even though I am trying to do it quietly, my partner will sometimes feel it and change his feet to put my backstep into an ocho. This means my little embellishment gets magnified by the fact that it now goes around instead of just straight back.

However, the front beat I did was the embellishment. Doing an ocho afterwards is simply following his lead. His switch to an ocho is simply him changing feet (not embellishing) so that we are on the correct feet for an ocho. Without his quick weight change, we'd still be walking straight back.

Sometimes I think he did this, not for visual effect, but to let me know that my embellishment was not as quiet in my body as it should be. Perhaps he even felt me tip to my left and was trying to save what he thought was a fall. But I still wouldn't call his change of lead an embellishment, even if it built off my embellishment.
 

Zoopsia59

Well-Known Member
I cant see how you can say that either of these is a pause; a gancho and a boleo are both emphatic fast movements; hook and return, or rebound or displace..
agree.

However, there is some trend now in alternative styling where the follower lifts her leg into a gancho position and holds it there. (didn't you post that video of someone doing that in a colgada, or was that someone else?)
 
Sometimes I think he did this, not for visual effect, but to let me know that my embellishment was not as quiet in my body as it should be. Perhaps he even felt me tip to my left and was trying to save what he thought was a fall.
IMO its more likely to be his way of saying he liked what you was doing.
 

bordertangoman

Well-Known Member
agree.

However, there is some trend now in alternative styling where the follower lifts her leg into a gancho position and holds it there. (didn't you post that video of someone doing that in a colgada, or was that someone else?)
more likely to be a step-over colgada- Homer and Christina do these...not a gancho
 
Because that's a led movement. It's not something the follower decides to do independently. It's quite an important difference.
I fail to see how any two people can be connected and independent at the same time. Maybe I'm overly sensitive, but even unled adornments done by a follower will affect the way I interpret the song and how I interact with her. How can it not? There is always feedback in both directions, so this distinction feels artificial/theoretical to me.

I'd add "change of weight" also, and possibly an exception for a cross step, but yes, that seems 's about right.
I consider a change of weight to be a zero-point side step. The cross is not fundamentally any different from a collected position, except that it changes the quality of the movement that follows it.

Umm, no. At least, not in my opinion. The gancho is not something that the follower should decide to do.
I didn't say it was unled. That would be quite unfortunate!

In my opinion, the gancho is a follower step, which is interrupted by the leader's leg. This interruption creates a hook motion for the follower's leg.
A gancho can be performed by either the leader or the follower.

Again, the boleo is an interrupted step - but with the interruption being led by the leader's body, the follower's leg simply swings out in the direction of the step that's led.

I really don't think there's a pause involved...
If there is no step and no pivot, it's a pause. In the case of a boleo, there is either rotational or linear energy added to induce the free leg to move, but no matter how much that leg whips around, there is no step. However, if the energy is rotational, there will be a pivot, so it's not a pause. Sorry, I should have specified linear (front, back, or side) boleos.

The sacada is a normal step, but taken towards the partner body, so displacing the follower / leader's leg. I'm not sure that a sacada needs any extra energy...
It doesn't have to be more energy, just different energy.

dchester said:
I'm not clear if you are trying to call me a [kitty], or what the point of the smilie is.
I am a cat person. I was asserting my cat-like tendencies. :kitty:

dchester said:
Generally speaking, there are foot movements, weight changes, and pivots. You appear to be defining a pause by the lack of weight changes by the follower, (since the leader certainly can take steps when leading a boleos). If I'm understanding you correctly (which I'm not at all sure), then a calesita would also be considered a pause by you.
No, the calesita is a pivot.

newbie said:
While disagreeing with Nathan, I think the idea is you can, with adequate leading, freeze a boleo or a gancho and stay frozen for four beats and then resume dancing. And so, a not-frozen boleo can be seen a a very short pause. But you cannot freeze a sacada, it would become something else, a tomada or parada.
This was not what I meant, but yes, freezing a movement is always possible, and it leads to a pause. (Also, if a sacada becomes something else when frozen, I would hesitate to claim they are different movements at all. They would simply be variations in quality of the same basic step.)
 

bordertangoman

Well-Known Member
If there is no step and no pivot, it's a pause. .....In the case of a boleo, there is either rotational or linear energy added to induce the free leg to move, but no matter how much that leg whips around, there is no step. However, if the energy is rotational, there will be a pivot, so it's not a pause. Sorry, I should have specified linear (front, back, or side) boleos.
.)
i think thats a poor definition of a pause; there's a lot of things I can lead without them becoming a step, (that is to say involving a weight change) but there's no pause in my movement.

Thinking about it even my pauses are full of portent and latent energy; which the follower feels ;)
 
I fail to see how any two people can be connected and independent at the same time.
Um. Because they can? Just because I'm connected to my partner, doesn't mean she has no mind of her own or that she's not thinking about her own dancing.

Maybe I'm overly sensitive, but even unled adornments done by a follower will affect the way I interpret the song and how I interact with her. How can it not? There is always feedback in both directions, so this distinction feels artificial/theoretical to me.
You're saying that if your partner tilts her ankle in a certain way as an adornment, that affects your dancing? Frankly, I don't believe that.

The point is, again, adornments are, almost by definition, steps which are not led.

That's it. I'm sticking with that definition, because that's what everyone else uses, and because it makes sense.

Your definition of "adornment" does not make sense.

I consider a change of weight to be a zero-point side step. The cross is not fundamentally any different from a collected position, except that it changes the quality of the movement that follows it.
Fair enough.

If there is no step and no pivot, it's a pause. In the case of a boleo, there is either rotational or linear energy added to induce the free leg to move, but no matter how much that leg whips around, there is no step. However, if the energy is rotational, there will be a pivot, so it's not a pause. Sorry, I should have specified linear (front, back, or side) boleos.
Again, your definitions are... ummm... interesting, I'll give you that.

I suspect we may have to disagree on a lot of these things, because we obviously have different definitions of basic concepts such as what a "pause" - and for that matter a "step" is.

Re: sacadas:
It doesn't have to be more energy, just different energy.
Nuclear?

You seem to be moving the goalposts a bit here.

You initially said:
To get more technical, the gancho is not a step, but an embellished/altered (and laboriously set-up...) form of the pause. The boleo is also a pause, and the sacada is a step (front, back, or side) with a little bit of energy added to it.
Are you still asserting that sacadas, ganchos and boleos are adornments?
 

newbie

Well-Known Member
Nathan said:
even unled adornments done by a follower will affect the way I interpret the song and how I interact with her. How can it not? There is always feedback in both directions
Not so.
I remember being invited by a (female) teacher in a milonga. She knew I was a beginner and somehow afraid to dance with her (why somehow? Panicky I was), and that if I felt disturbed by anything unexpected in her steps I would freeze on the dancefloor ("So sorry! Where did I go wrong?").
After the dance we walked to her table. I wanted to thank her for not doing any adorno/embellishment but before I could speak a friend of hers congratulated her on all the nice, fluid and musical adornos/embellishments she had kept doing. I had felt nothing. And seen nothing either because of the close embrace.

Now if the follower is not skilled enough to do adornos/embellishments without her partner noticing then yes she should refrain. "You know, embellishments are supposed to embellish", I once heard a female BsAs teacher say to a girl who insisted on doing a certain adorno any time she could, whatever the music may say or the leader may lead.
 

bordertangoman

Well-Known Member
Not so.
I remember being invited by a (female) teacher in a milonga. She knew I was a beginner and somehow afraid to dance with her (why somehow? Panicky I was), and that if I felt disturbed by anything unexpected in her steps I would freeze on the dancefloor ("So sorry! Where did I go wrong?").
After the dance we walked to her table. I wanted to thank her for not doing any adorno/embellishment but before I could speak a friend of hers congratulated her on all the nice, fluid and musical adornos/embellishments she had kept doing. I had felt nothing. And seen nothing either because of the close embrace.

Now if the follower is not skilled enough to do adornos/embellishments without her partner noticing then yes she should refrain. "You know, embellishments are supposed to embellish", I once heard a female BsAs teacher say to a girl who insisted on doing a certain adorno any time she could, whatever the music may say or the leader may lead.
i had a similar experience with Ines Moussavi, dancing a milonga, I was dancing simple, she was chucking in adornments all over the place, but never did she interfere with my leads and i just kept going. We even got a round of applause... well she did anyway..
 

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