Well Rounded
Well-Known Member
Agree. I can't imagine establishing a strong technical foundation without a structured approach.
Syllabus or Opens? Fastest path to becoming a high-level competitor
- Thread starter Well Rounded
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Misspendragon
Forum Master
Just to play devil's advocate though, during my recent lesson with Karina S she expressed her frustration with the closed syllabus because she feels like it's almost more difficult to dance than open, as movements don't flow as naturally. This is not to say she implied in any way that learning closed figures is useless, not at all. Nor do I think that; as someone who twenty years ago went from closed bronze to open gold in a matter of six months, I can attest to the need of going through bronze/silver/gold in closed syllabus before entering open. However, I do feel constrained by closed routines in a way that is sometimes annoying; it's not the fancy moves I miss so much, but rather the freedom to play with time, like doing a really slow spiral, perform delayed walks, syncopate etc. just because I feel like it in the moment! I'm in closed silver now and will go through closed gold before attempting open gold, however I admit, I can hardly wait to struggle on a different artistic level, so to speak. Syllabus is very much about technique and frame, proper timing, and figures, all of which are very important, but there is more to dancing than that.
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Mengu
Forum Master
I've heard similar complaint about bronze smooth, so I understand this frustration. But there are also many movements in bronze that you continue to work on throughout your entire dance life. So maybe not skip it, but don't spend quite so much time on it, because you're going to be working on this stuff forever anyway? I don't know... I was once quite appalled by the idea of not following syllabus, but I now think it should be tailored to the student more than following that strict regimen.
raindance
Forum Master
One outlet for that sort of artistic expression for syllabus dancers is a showcase routine. That takes away just about all the restrictions. Of course, it takes lesson time away from syllabus work and comp prep, or requires extra lessons on top. But sometimes it's nice to have the variety and a chance to be more expressive and explore other movements and timings.
Misspendragon
Forum Master
Yeah, I hear you. I have so many comps back-to-back right now (Millenium, Empire, USDC, Paragon) that a showcase is out of the question, but once I get out of silver and start to prepare for a closed cold comp (which will mean several months without a comp), I will do a showcase.
joy
Forum Master
What a great comp lineup!
DanceMentor
Administrator
It certainly helps to dance with a pro who wins a lot. And not just any pro who wins things, but you want to find the very Best of the Best. And then you need to be able to find a way to spend enough time with that pro. And then you need to pour your blood sweat and tears into it.
Misspendragon
Forum Master
Unfortunately, the Best of the Best tend to cost a fortune. Even just mid-ranked but still active Pros usually cost more compared to retired Pros.
bry_dancer
Well-Known Member
This sounds pretty accurate based on what I've seen of top level competitors at our studio. Our studio owner has specifically told people that if they want to win consistently they should take at least 8 lessons per week. At first I thought it was a sales pitch, but it does seem to be true of the high level competitors I've seen. And I had a visiting coach (who judges all the time) tell me that I need to be doing at least a comp every other month if I want to win consistently. The other nice thing about doing so many comps is even if you have a "bad" one there's always another in two months.
The other funny thing is I talked to a couple of the high level students about how much they practice on their own and they basically said never because they are in the studio with their pro 5 days a week for 1.5 hours so they are "practicing" almost every day with their pro.
Misspendragon
Forum Master
To use one's Pro for practice though, that doesn't seem smart to me. I mean, there are things you can only practice with your partner, but what about doing rumba and cha cha walks, voltas or whisks is samba, etc.? We use the basics all time, regardless of our routine, and they can be perfected without a Pro (with a Pro's feedback). So, I think practice has value regardless how many lessons one takes.
And ouch, 5 years? I planned with 3
. And not with daily lessons but certainly with practice, and maybe 5 comps a year. Of course, I might me sadly overconfident and/or clueless.
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It depends how much money you have.
The fact that you practice some on your own may very well allow you to compress the schedule for achievement from 5 years to three.And ouch, 5 years? I planned with 3
Warren J. Dew
Forum Master
While true, walks are not all there is to dance. For men especially, constant practice with a lady providing feedback on your lead is needed. And at some point getting that practice with your pro is needed, though an amateur partner can go a long way.
Misspendragon
Forum Master
Of course. I've said myself, "there are things you can only practice with your partner." But to not practice alone AT ALL, that seems unwise to me.
For follows, plenty of practice with someone whose leads are confident and clear is important and could go a long way. It's the only possible way for most follows to learn "move yourself as soon as you feel the lead" and to "commit to what you started to do". It can be difficult to find an amateur partner to dance with whose frame, knowledge of steps and ability to time leads is good enough to be helpful in that regard.
Because that partner is not any ole' Am lead.
And I'm also learning more and more that one of the problems with group lessons and/or social dancing is that at least I want to be "cooperative". Since almost by definition the leads in group class do not really know how to lead the new step right, the lead can be tentative and even initially contradictory. Similar contradictory things happen on the social floor. And sadly, this doesn't just make it hard to move as soon as I feel "the lead" (because I know the lead I feel is often not the "final" or "real" lead.) It also makes it difficulty for me to "commit" to what I am doing in response to the lead. And sadly, if you "cooperate" with a changeable or unclear lead which then changes, and move involves any sort of change in direction-- pivot, turn etc. -- getting prepped to move or turn one way and then having the lead change to the other stresses knees. It doesn't immediately blow them out, but legs are worn out in a bad way at the end of the evening.
So for a follow, dancing with an amateur who is not a quite good lead can actually almost be "un-practice". You are rewarded for being tentative, not moving as soon as you should, and end up doing some moves that stress your legs and to some extent back in unproductive ways.
So practicing with a good lead would helpful, but it's generally hard to find one who wants to devote and hour or two a week with you. The Am leads who've trained enough to be good clear leads generally want to dance with a follow who is rather better than I am!!
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Slightly side note: does your studio encourage, or at least being neutral on "follow the signal given instead of the signal intended?"
Because, imho, leads would learn a lot faster if they could get immediate feedback on their lead - and by "only following their signals," they would immediately see the difference between their intention (which is in their mind) and their signals (which is what you have done) and could make corrections accordingly. And in the long run, they could become better leads and you can become a better follow. Really, it is a win-win situation! (Well, perhaps except our ego. But it would get hurt multiple times anyway, so might as well start it early!) While social dancing might not be the right setting, but group lessons seem to be a reasonable place to do so?