Syllabus or Opens? Fastest path to becoming a high-level competitor

[ProgressNotPerfection]

does your studio encourage, or at least being neutral on "follow the signal given instead of the signal intended?"

This isn’t directly responsive to your question - it’s meandering down a related side path instead - but it reminded me of an issue that continues to plague me. As an amateur student, I frequently misread (“mis-feel”?) the signal being given by my pro, so I don’t react the way he intends me to. Your question seems to assume that the follower knows what signal the leader is intending to give, and knows it’s different from the signal the leader is actually giving, and can decide in a split second whether to follow the signal given or the signal intended.

How does one become a follower like that??? Referring back to the thread title: what is the fastest and best way to develop those skills? It looks almost like telepathy (or magic), but I suppose it’s just fluency in a language that both partners know. And the best way to learn a new language, IME, is immersion and practice. (And time. But as we know, patience is not one of my skills.)

 

[joy]

As an amateur student, I frequently misread (“mis-feel”?) the signal being given by my pro, so I don’t react the way he intends me to. Your question seems to assume that the follower knows what signal the leader is intending to give, and knows it’s different from the signal the leader is actually giving, and can decide in a split second whether to follow the signal given or the signal intended.

I know pretty much what my Pro wants me to do with his lead. We also like to warm up to Argentine Tango and Kizomba.

I social dance every week. And do WCS which is really high in improvisation.

I’m constantly dancing with strangers. Ballroom and WCS.

I do think the main biomechanical skill as a follow is the frame connection. Those tiny adjustments in the hand position has to translate to your back.

 

[millitiz]

This isn’t directly responsive to your question - it’s meandering down a related side path instead - but it reminded me of an issue that continues to plague me. As an amateur student, I frequently misread (“mis-feel”?) the signal being given by my pro, so I don’t react the way he intends me to. Your question seems to assume that the follower knows what signal the leader is intending to give, and knows it’s different from the signal the leader is actually giving, and can decide in a split second whether to follow the signal given or the signal intended.

How does one become a follower like that??? Referring back to the thread title: what is the fastest and best way to develop those skills? It looks almost like telepathy (or magic), but I suppose it’s just fluency in a language that both partners know. And the best way to learn a new language, IME, is immersion and practice. (And time. But as we know, patience is not one of my skills.)

hmm? I thought the original post stated that she kinda knew what (steps) the lead wanting to lead but giving a contradicting signal? So I assume she knew the difference between what was intended, and what was lead. Like for instance I was lead into a fan position, since I have learned the step, so I kinda knew/guessed what the lead was intended to do - the fan - and I could fake follow it. But the signal he gave might be something else entirely (perhaps pull push me a bit too much or something like that).

Since I am not very fluent in Standard, I won't comment in that department. I think there are a few questions all mixed together.
How to differentiated what is intended and what is given?
This probably comes with experience. I know a few pros having enough experience to do so.
How does one become a follower like that?
Experience, most likely in leading. But really,
Is it necessary to be able to do that?
Not really. My understanding is, really good follows don't follow what is intended, but follow what is given. A few years ago, I was practicing with a pro (we were both students in a group lesson), and we were discussing something while holding, and I accidentally/unintentionally shook my connected hand just a bit. Which then resulted in him almost falling over. The reason was: we were fully connected, and while my hand shook just a bit, his body read the signal and reacted to it accordingly before both our brains registered what was going on. And I have heard that the top followers are like that - just even more sensitive.
How to get there?
There are a few aspects to this. Sensitivity and reacting in a split second - from what I was taught, come down to practice. Lots of practice. Good thing is leads also need to learn how learn what signal means what, and that takes a lot of practice too. There is also the mindset - that always on alert, ready to change, which is also true with our body - it should be fully prepared, well connected so that it could change/outburst the energy in a split second. On the technical aspect, it comes down to posture and energy. Good posture would connect the spines between lead and follow, good energy would make you a more powerful/dynamic dancer, and really, just all around easier to lead.
One of the "mindset" part I found really hard for me personally is keep doing until being told otherwise. Like a check (for lead) and back check (for follow). Since the follow doesn't know when, or whether changing direction, it is just a backward walk. So if my lead doesn't stop me (the check - to change direction), I will keep going backward. Even if my brain screams "Is he stopping me yet? Is he stopping me yet? I am SO going to fall! AHHHH!" I will have to move backward. Perhaps he totally wants me to be in an over balance position, and I could/should not make the decision for him and thereby killing our connection.

 

[millitiz]

How does one become a follower like that?
Experience, most likely in leading. But really,

Sorry, I really mean "Experience (in following), most likely with some leading (experience) in the mix" but I passed the 15 min mark.

 

[lucia_l]

Slightly side note: does your studio encourage, or at least being neutral on "follow the signal given instead of the signal intended?"

I think every coach everywhere says follow the signal given. I've even had coaches and teachers say if the guy doesn't step out of the lane in a slot dance, you should just run into him. This is nevertheless difficult advise for normal human beings with some social skills to adopt. In real life, people tend to want to be cooperative. It's a hard habit to break.

Because, imho, leads would learn a lot faster if they could get immediate feedback on their lead - and by "only following their signals,"

Maybe. Or not. In a social situation it would often lead to horrible frustration for beginner leads who are just trying to get around the floor.

they would immediately see the difference between their intention (which is in their mind) and their signals (which is what you have done) and could make corrections accordingly.

They could only do that if they knew what the correction should be. They often don't. I often can't tell them. And sometimes the problem is subtle.

And in the long run, they could become better leads and you can become a better follow. Really, it is a win-win situation! (Well, perhaps except our ego. But it would get hurt multiple times anyway, so might as well start it early!) While social dancing might not be the right setting, but group lessons seem to be a reasonable place to do so?

The corrections can happen to some extent in a group lesson. Depending on the lead or follow, sometimes it requires intervention of the teacher if you can pull them aside. After all: you've got a student lead and a student follow.

But honestly, in a group lesson, the very first time the teacher has shown a move both partners will nearly always try to do "their part" whether or not the lead is correct. You've generally both been shown your part and there is no other way for the follow to even begin to tell whether the lead is assisting or contradicting what her part does. After you both tried your part, you can then evaluate whether it felt like the things both of you did meshed.

But there is absolutely no way a follow can expect that the lead will do his footwork, directions and actually lead the very first time he tries the move. It's almost never going to happen. ( And the follow might not do hers right either.)

 

[Mengu]

But there is absolutely no way a follow can expect that the lead will do his footwork, directions and actually lead the very first time he tries the move.

lol, let me introduce you to my instructor, and my two partners...

But seriously, I'd rather fail my first few attempts to lead, so I know what to fix. If my first attempt succeeds, I might not feel I need to change anything. Also the more obvious the error is, the easier it is to fix.

 

[Warren J. Dew]

Maybe. Or not. In a social situation it would often lead to horrible frustration for beginner leads who are just trying to get around the floor.

Ignoring their lead is far more frustrating for them except in the rare case where they are natural follows and can just follow the backlead.

If my first attempt succeeds, I might not feel I need to change anything.

Indeed, you would be positively reinforced for doing the wrong thing. This is how bad habits are built.

 

[lucia_l]

Ignoring their lead is far more frustrating for them except in the rare case where they are natural follows and can just follow the backlead.

Warren,
Sure. I don't back lead. I don't ignore their lead.

The situation is often (a) there really isn't any actual lead-- they lead just does all actions at the same time and I see what they actually did-- after the fact or (b) they start one lead but then do something else or (c) they start one lead and then change to another lead. (You rarely have an outside party diagnosing this. But I take some husband/wife classes and the teacher will point out this is what happened.)

I generally try to do what I think they lead. Or I do it if what they lead is not literally impossible. What I think they leade is often exactly what they lead. But it's not what they think they lead.

The issue is "Do I hesitate until I know the lead is 'confirmed'." or do I just "Take off at the first hint of a lead." With my pros, I can do the latter.

With some social leads, I can't because they will change their mind, suddenly move their arm or body in some other direction and my shoulder will feel like it's going to be dislocated or my knees are seriously carrying unnecessary torque to make the sudden change.

In fact, based on experince, in real life, leads who change their mine will be frustrated that I really "went for it" on the first (false) lead which is not what they thought they lead.

Like it or not: beginner and intermediate leads sometimes change their minds. Or they exhibit "features" they think are "being cool" or "interpretations" that feel like a lead but which they don't intend to be a lead.

 

[lucia_l]

But seriously, I'd rather fail my first few attempts to lead, so I know what to fix. If my first attempt succeeds, I might not feel I need to change anything. Also the more obvious the error is, the easier it is to fix.

I get that. But you need to realize that following a bad lead can end up causing the follow pain in the shoulder or knees. Yes. You may benefit from now knowing what to fix. But the follow isn't going to make it through the group lessons sacrificing her knees and shoulder to that cause!

 

[millitiz]

Ok, since I derail quite far away, let me go back to the original question: Syllabus or Opens? Fastest path to becoming a high-level competitor. I have my own suspicious that, perhaps, follows are more suited to just go high level straight. Here I assume leads already good enough - since we are discussing pro-am situations.

Part of the reason for going through syllabus is to learn, and more importantly to practice, different elements of dancing. And I think it is especially fine for follows to practice basic elements and compete in, say, open.

And, perhaps, since anything can happen in open, follows could learn better with following?

 

[Mengu]

I get that. But you need to realize that following a bad lead can end up causing the follow pain in the shoulder or knees. Yes. You may benefit from now knowing what to fix. But the follow isn't going to make it through the group lessons sacrificing her knees and shoulder to that cause!

I hear you... I agree of course, hurting your partner is never acceptable. When I say "allow it to fail", I don't mean break your partner. For me, it would end up either being the wrong step, or we would stop, or let go, like you described in another post... And I wouldn't suggest failing this way in social dance (where making the partnership work is the priority) or competition, only for learning a new step, in a lesson.

And I'm not going to complain in the moment, if during a group lesson, my partner is just doing her steps... I chalk it up to this is their level, and partner them the best I can.

I should maybe expand on how I best learn from feedback... In private lessons, if my instructor were to do her part without letting me lead it, when I later try it with my partner, it is almost guaranteed to fail. I also always ask to be lead through the step. And the first try, she may have to use a heavier lead to get me through the step because I'm not an experienced follow, and have to listen to signals a little longer. Once I know what to listen to, we can do it again, a little lighter. At that point, I have a better idea of how it feels, and will be able to lead it more clearly, but what you feel is not always obvious how to produce, so we have to use our words, and describe to each other what we're doing and what we're feeling on either end of the partnership.

So even during group lessons, if I am learning a new pattern (which is somewhat rare), I will try to switch role and dance both sides where possible.

Also, I have been extremely lucky with regular partners who follow what I lead. I can sometimes forget what I'm supposed to be doing in practice, and might for instance dance a fallaway slip pivot when the plan was a quick open reverse turn, and 100% of the time, my partner will successfully complete the wrong step with me, before I go oops, and we try again.

 

[lucia_l]

Mengu
I agree with you that in private lessons, your teacher has to follow your leads to give you feedback. She's also a pro who usually knows what you are trying to lead as well. And she is familiar with your level so she might also do some "hesitating" to compensate for bad timing that inevitably occurs when a lead is first learning something.

But some of this discussion of whether follows should follow what a lead lead, what he think he lead and so on bounced off my discussion of what we follows can realistically get out of practice started with AMs with my reply to Warren's comment here . My point was that (like it or not) there are certain things that AM follows can rarely get practice on with an AM lead. (Not never-- rarely.) One of those is developing practice "going the instant you feel the lead" and doing it with confidence. So I've been trying to explain why a follow really can't do that in group or social dancing, and why she can rarely get it from an AM.

No matter what is best for a lead's learning, and no matter what he might prefer, a follow cannot practice that skill of just going with a lead who does not already know the lead. She can only practice it with a lead who leads the step smoothly and unambiguously with confidence and does not change his mind.

Also, I have been extremely lucky with regular partners who follow what I lead. I can sometimes forget what I'm supposed to be doing in practice, and might for instance dance a fallaway slip pivot when the plan was a quick open reverse turn, and 100% of the time, my partner will successfully complete the wrong step with me, before I go oops, and we try again.

This is perfect behavior! The problem when dancing socially is some leads sill start to lead the fallaway slip pivot, realize their mistake after starting the lead and then change to the quick open reverse turn. This is not necessarily what you do nor what any lead reading here does, but I assure you it happens! It can be deadly. And it's why follows have a hard time developing the skill of "just go the second you feel the lead" with Am partners especially Am partners trying to learn new steps themselves.

To some extent, a follow can only learn to go the instant they feel the lead dancing with a lead who has mastered the lead. By that point, especially in a group class many Am leads feel they've mastered it (and they have) and want to move on to the next step, move or whatever.

But if the couple doesn't spend time after the lead is mastered to let the follow practice responding quickly, the follow doesn't get the practice she needs to develop the skill of "just going".

And almost by definition, she will not be able to get this practice in a group lesso because even if 2 out of 10 of the leads who came to learn the step have gained mastery, 8 out of 10 have not. And the follow can't tell which got it right until after trying it a few times-- and then the teacher will likely call "change partners". So responding quickly to proper leads is not something a follow can easily do in a group lesson.

I'd suggest the only way the follow has much opportunity to practice that with an AM partner is if she finds an AM partner who wants to compete AM/AM. The pressure of competing AM/AM will help the lead understands that some of the things she needs to practice happen after he feels he has mastered the step and lead. And he will understand that the dancing will not be swift, athletic, smooth, graceful and so on unless she gets that practice.

Other leads? Well, a heck of a lot of leads feel like the move is "mastered" when he's lead it and she managed to follow it-- even if she did so hesitantly. And at that point, it's time to move on, leaving many follows "slow to move" and "hesitant". (And then some leads don't understand why follows have a hard time learning to just move, gosh darnit!!! Yes, I've heard leads grumble about this-- even if it's indirectly by complimenting me that I'm the "only" follow who actually moves herself!!)

 

[Misspendragon]

(And then some leads don't understand why follows have a hard time learning to just move, gosh darnit!!! Yes, I've heard leads grumble about this-- even if it's indirectly by complimenting me that I'm the "only" follow who actually moves herself!!)

It takes probably a decade for a Follow to get to the point where she can sensitively follow while also confidently moving on her own. I know I'm not there; I will not be there for several years. And I suspect this is also true for Leads; it must be very difficult to follow decisively yet sensitively, without either panicking/freezing when any problem arises, or muscling through the move which, as we 've just discussed, really isn't a solution.

 

[Mengu]

One of those is developing practice "going the instant you feel the lead" and doing it with confidence.

So, I've seen this mentioned in these or similar words a few times... I might be reading too much into it, but it sounds like there is the perception "feeling the lead" and "going" are done in an alternating cycle. Is this really the case? Shouldn't followers be always going, and always following? It's not like on step one of a feather finish, I can communicate that we are dancing a feather finish. I can only communicate that I'm moving back commencing to turn, and that I would like my partner to come with me. Then for the next movement I might do a strong sway to redirect and go back the way we came, or I might scoop and go into a tumble turn, or I might check the movement into the feather finish and do a top spin, or some other option. And within those options, there are options, like I might do the tumble turn more linearly, or more rotary, or with a greater scoop, or I could hover longer in the middle...

I think this is the single hardest thing about dancing as a follow... that you always have to go, and you always have to listen and feel for the changes in movement. And yeah, it takes a long time and lots of partner practice to develop that sensitivity (which goes for both sides of the partnership).

 

[IndyLady]

So, I've seen this mentioned in these or similar words a few times... I might be reading too much into it, but it sounds like there is the perception "feeling the lead" and "going" are done in an alternating cycle. Is this really the case? Shouldn't followers be always going, and always following?
....
I think this is the single hardest thing about dancing as a follow... that you always have to go, and you always have to listen and feel for the changes in movement. And yeah, it takes a long time and lots of partner practice to develop that sensitivity (which goes for both sides of the partnership).

I know the lesson lucia is talking about. This is similar to the corporate "make a decision once you have 70% of the information", rather than sitting on your hands waiting until you are 100% sure. Get moving after a word or two, don't hang out insisting on a paragraph explanation. Also tied in to, it's not the lead's responsibility to physically move you (something many of us struggle with in the early stages). The challenge is to not totally jump the gun though and end up anticipating or misinterpreting.

But yes, it is a constant back and forth between listening and going.