Tango as a 'third place'

[itwillhappen]

Which is to say, AT does serve as a third place...to those who already dance. But to the larger community of people who live in that geographical area, it absolutely does not, because they cannot meaningfully participate.

I agree. However, a milonga is then a high-performance third place for dancers. Personally, if I were to visit a coffee shop or even a shopping mall in my own city on my own, I'd hardly talk to anyone within weeks. At a milonga, I can do that within minutes in an unfamiliar city.

One of the main complaints I heard from a lot of people is that if they leave a dance or stop going as much, all the people they thought were great friends just disconnect, just because they no longer have this great similar dance glue.

I wouldn't overestimate other third places in this regard, though. Friends who might notice if you don't get up in the morning are probably only gained through complementary mechanisms that build upon that.

The often spontaneous dancing requires a great deal of harmony and practice. Seen in this light, a milonga is a work of art in social interaction. People instinctively try to prevent conversations that delve too deeply (politics, wealth, justice) either instinctively or due to social rules ("no babysitting"). So, if you want to make friends, you better seek out and initiate activities based on dancing. Show people that you like them and suggest something: going out for a meal after the milonga, carpooling to a workshop, events with joint registration - whatever works for you.

We recently had a workshop within our private group, followed by a get-together and dancing in our home. But these are personal interests that don't necessarily align with the interests of the community! Friendships certainly develop, but outsiders might also perceive it as a clique. So you have to be sensitive and careful.

 

[brujo]

So, if you want to make friends, you better seek out and initiate activities based on dancing. Show people that you like them and suggest something: going out for a meal after the milonga, carpooling to a workshop, events with joint registration - whatever works for you.

What I see is that in smaller communities where there might be 3 hours of tango a week if you don’t travel there is a lot more of this going on. People start WhatsApp groups, have house parties, have meals and tea together after class, and strongly encourage beginners to travel with them to other cities. In the bigger scenes where there is a lot of tango available, people just go have this need met at the milongas or practicas so even asking to grab coffee outside of class feels a little weird.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

That's a big part of the problem, according to literature I've read on the subject. In recent decades, there are ever-fewer places where people can congregate for free, and those places tend to be further from homes and workplaces than they used to be. The problem is especially pronounced with kids, who have even less money and even less freedom to move.

That, along with the privatization of purportedly public spaces in large cities.

 

[Brummbaer]

That, along with the privatization of purportedly public spaces in large cities.

They were frequently private anyway, just open to the public. More recently they've asserted their rights of ownership and restricted what the public may do. Even 'public' owned is by the local council, who may restrict what you can and can't do - but you may be able to change the council.

 

[opendoor]

..Argentine ambassador... was simply a bystander.

The officials I met didn't dance at their receptions and public appearances either. But they learned in secret.

 

[itwillhappen]

What I see is that in smaller communities where there might be 3 hours of tango a week if you don’t travel there is a lot more of this going on. People start WhatsApp groups, have house parties, have meals and tea together after class, and strongly encourage beginners to travel with them to other cities. In the bigger scenes where there is a lot of tango available, people just go have this need met at the milongas or practicas so even asking to grab coffee outside of class feels a little weird.

Nevertheless, people in smaller communities might assume that bigger scenes offer better opportunities. The question is also whether you really want to engage in meaningful conversation and open up. What kind of situation do you see yourself in?

Community leaders usually pursue their own goals; this becomes quite apparent when competitive situations arise. Therefore, you can't expect your own initiatives to always be met with enthusiasm, unless you bring pasta salad or sheet cake to their milonga. Other participants also view it with suspicion when someone stands up and goes their own way.

But you might look if there's a 'third place' within the milonga, such as a bar, an open seating area, or an adjacent restaurant.

 

[Rabbit]

Community leaders usually pursue their own goals; this becomes quite apparent when competitive situations arise.

Of course they do, so why shouldn't everyone else also engage in shaping activity?

 

[itwillhappen]

Of course they do, so why shouldn't everyone else also engage in shaping activity?

I agree, and especially if you're thinking of creating a "third place," not much will happen without personal engagement. But you shouldn't expect others to have the same goals at the same time; you should be able to cope if there's no real demand in the community or if you've underestimated the effort needed.
(And suggestions about what others should do are completely useless.)

 

[itwillhappen]

I needed a "third place" the other evening because I had to leave my 'first place'. (My SO met up with a tanguera to talk about the serious things in life; in our sauna and in front of the fireplace.)

Of course, I went to a milonga, one that was new for me. And I've learned that for a milonga to function well as a 'third place', it has to be one thing above all: bad! Bad floor, bad floorcraft, bad ronda, bad technique, bad music. Then anyone who took a dance class in their youth, or learned some kind of disco fox, or maybe even recently took a tango class, can happily join in! So I was happy to be able to warm up, dance a few relaxed tandas when the music wasn't completely awful, and grab a bite to eat in between, so the pub could cover the costs for its adjoining room.

 

[opendoor]

..Bad floor, bad floorcraft, bad ronda, bad technique, bad music.. So I was happy to be able to warm up..

nicely put!

Could lead to the idea that a lot of those haughty and cliquish milongas work for many rather as a pseudo "second place".

 

[JournalInTime]

Even a "good" milonga can be a "third place" if the organizers are smart and welcoming. This means that they greet everybody; introduce newcomers (from tango tourists to total beginners) to regulars, and maybe dance with them; organize the physical space to be larger than the needs of their anticipated attendance, so that all levels can participate, and set aside a "practice area," and also a bar area where people can sit, chat, and watch; don't charge entry fees to non-dancers who just want to watch; and occasionally offer free pre-milonga lessons at the "total beginner" level. One of my favorite milongas does this and has successfully drawn in a few non-tango locals (including staff from nearby businesses) without compromising the level of dance.

The music is what it is. I cannot see how having a good DJ would play a significant role in excluding anyone, or how having a bad DJ would be more inclusive. Honestly, a trash DJ would probably scare off the casual and the curious . . . I think a good DJ would contribute to a milonga becoming a "third place" about as well as a competent barman would at a pub or a skilled barista would at a café.

And I totally agree that "good" milongas have a strong tendency to drift into being "second places": de facto workplaces for would-be competitors, performers, and teachers, showing off to advance their pseudo-careers or actual careers. This why I'm so aggressively against teaching on the dancefloor and dancing for onlookers – they are both "second place" behaviors that inhibit community by positioning some people as superior to others. In its original sociological definition, a "third place" is democratized neutral ground with minimal or no structure. A teaching or performing elite who enjoy social privilege, even informal, is inimical to that unless part of the actual staff, like the good DJ, competent barman, or skilled barista . . . and anyone who thinks staff vs. non-staff makes no difference doesn't understand the concept of paying rent.

 

[brujo]

The music is what it is. I cannot see how having a good DJ would play a significant role in excluding anyone, or how having a bad DJ would be more inclusive. Honestly, a trash DJ would probably scare off the casual and the curious . . .

The difference here could be having a live orchestra instead of a DJ. In my area the orchestra don’t really do tandas so you end up usually dancing a song or two with a partner and then switching. This takes off a lot of pressure from beginners that show up because it’s easier to agree to one song. It also gives the nondancers a more exciting thing to watch. And because the bands usually start an hour or so after the lessons finish, a lot of the more advanced folks are happy to dance with the beginners during that in-between period.

The orchestras don’t even have to be big. We often have a band that is just a Bandoneon player and a pianist or a Bandoneon player and a sax player and people have a blast.

 

[JournalInTime]

The difference here could be having a live orchestra instead of a DJ. In my area the orchestra don’t really do tandas so you end up usually dancing a song or two with a partner and then switching. This takes off a lot of pressure from beginners that show up because it’s easier to agree to one song. It also gives the nondancers a more exciting thing to watch. And because the bands usually start an hour or so after the lessons finish, a lot of the more advanced folks are happy to dance with the beginners during that in-between period.

The orchestras don’t even have to be big. We often have a band that is just a Bandoneon player and a pianist or a Bandoneon player and a sax player and people have a blast.

First, this is awesome!

I totally agree that live music is more inclusive, for lack of a better term. Around here, we mostly have DJs, but when we do have live music, there's a significant non-dancing audience at some places. The lack of tandas certainly does reduce pressure . . . you're more likely to take a chance with a wider range of partners if you're just dancing a song or two. And live music is a great leveler, because advanced dancers who have memorized every classic recording cannot show off as much, while less advanced ones who happen to be active listeners can often detect structure and enjoy a boost to their dancing.

Or in short, live music is more "normal": Most people are used to it and like to experience it, many active listeners can appreciate and dance to it regardless of their "home style," and many non-tango people find a dance or two makes more sense than a three- or four-song commitment.

My comment was mainly about "good DJ" vs. "bad DJ." I don't think a bad DJ makes a milonga more welcoming!

 

[itwillhappen]

Even a "good" milonga can be a "third place" if the organizers are smart and welcoming. This means that they greet everybody; introduce newcomers (from tango tourists to total beginners) to regulars, and maybe dance with them; organize the physical space to be larger than the needs of their anticipated attendance, so that all levels can participate, and set aside a "practice area," and also a bar area where people can sit, chat, and watch; don't charge entry fees to non-dancers who just want to watch; and occasionally offer free pre-milonga lessons at the "total beginner" level.

This shifts a lot of work and costs onto the organizers. We've already diskussed the question of when they paid of their debts to the community.

The music is what it is. I cannot see how having a good DJ would play a significant role in excluding anyone, or how having a bad DJ would be more inclusive. Honestly, a trash DJ would probably scare off the casual and the curious . . . I think a good DJ would contribute to a milonga becoming a "third place" about as well as a competent barman would at a pub or a skilled barista would at a café.

A truly bad DJ, especially when playing world/alternative/lounge music, has the potential to scare away performance-oriented dancers. (These are the ones who believe that without regular lessons, you develop "bad habits.") Then perhaps this focus on good dancing will cease. When I exceptionally visited a milonga as a "third space," the tangueras I knew naturally and discreetly took their positions; I never had to actively invite anyone. I would understand if that had bothered the residents.

 

[Brummbaer]

This shifts a lot of work and costs onto the organizers. We've already diskussed the question of when they paid of their debts to the community

That's never a 'debt' to be paid off! That's marketing social AT to your community and potential newcomers.

I recently visited 2 milongas in a far-away country. One, 'traditional', hosts, at least, welcoming, locals not so much (not even venturing from their reserved tables). We met a couple from our own country, and a visitor from out of town. Also relatively expensive.

Another milonga, another night. Friendly community hall (in a food hall). Loads of space (it was a practica with a concurrent milonga). Great floor, good music, friendly people, lounge seating. There were also many participants (100+). And cheap (less than half price of previous milonga). I'd go back there. It was also the 'locals' favourite.

Not a lot of work for the 'organiser'; the 'community' did the work.

It's about having the appropriate space at an acceptable cost. And being sociable!