Tango as it crosses over with the relationships, seduction and sexuality

[Cabbit]

To the untrained eye, leg wrapping is the most suspicious of activities because it is the most obvious.

 

[David_In_CA]

A class of options that being close facilitates is entanglements: ganchos, piernazos, pulpeadas, and so on.

After you do these, do you find that you and your partner spin in the same direction after you separate?

 

[JournalInTime]

After you do these, do you find that you and your partner spin in the same direction after you separate?

Honestly, I don't really notice any spin unless I created it for some reason (say, to facilitate a second entanglement, or because the entanglement is in a turn). Not sure whether that's good technique or bad, though.

 

[Gssh]

To the untrained eye, leg wrapping is the most suspicious of activities because it is the most obvious.

I never found "entanglements" all that flirtatious (it might be just me - my tango tends to gravitate towards rhythmic play, and i find that there are not many followers that do them in a way that works particularly well with the music, and it tends to take me out of the flow. I suspect that dancers sometimes take themselves out of the music when they do a fancy move because they treat it as a fixed unit).
I always felt that for actually flirting on the dancefloor salsa works much better.

 

[Tango Distance]

TNiSD: I was glad for you to read you've been doing regular Tango instruction and are taking steps towards doing Milongas. Many women have told my dear wife (DW) how lucky she is to have a man who will do Tango with her. Win or lose with your Tango girlfriend, it could be a good journey of self discovery and personal evolution for you to continue with Tango. That was certainly the case for me (my thread discusses this at length https://www.dance-forums.com/threads/not-touchy-feely.45840/ ).

I really thought you'd be more OK with Tango at this point, having taken a fair number of classes. On the flip side, a Milonga is a different experience. Also, my journey was like a 2 year thing, doing a class or two a week, a practica a week, a milonga a week, and 2 multi-day festivals a year. Obviously, your girlfriend being Tango-close with other men still bothers you a lot.

I believe you are expressing your frustration, wanting Tango people to validate your frustration, and seeking advice. I can help with numbers 1 and 3, and partially help with number 2. I'll talk generally for a while, and then intersperse some comments from several of your messages. Please note I have no formal counseling expertise and this is worth how much you paid me for it! Please note I'm hoping you can have it all, a great girlfriend, fun with Tango, and ultimately enjoy the journey of self discovery and personal growth.

• It is perfectly normal to feel jealous. I believe there is a wide range of normal on this. It is OK to feel unease at your girlfriend doing close embrace or leg wraps or being out late or more. Clearly Tango people have a more liberal threshold for jealously. Pre-Tango, I would have been 100% on your side. After doing Tango for a while, I realized it really is not a big deal. My DW goes to Milongas without me. On travel in distant cities, sometimes I'll go to a class or Milonga. We talk about it as if it were a news item or the weather, for us it is not a big deal. BTW, it was years before I went to a Tango event on my own, or did close embrace at all, and even more time before I did it often and more comfortably. It did take time.
• I'm a technical guy, too. Sometimes I hit a problem where the logic flows. It works logically working forwards and working backwards. Eventually (sometimes I actually say this out loud) I'll say "Question your assumptions." Usually it is a bug in the logic, but sometimes it is I started with a bad premise (like a web page that gave me a very wrong number for the diameter of the earth, or assuming my spectra math that worked with f_0 = 0 Hz would also work with f_0 > 0 Hz.
• I think you need to question your assumptions. Your position that your reasons for your frustration is correct is OK. You have an assumption that you have better thinking (smart technical guy, unbiased coming from the outside, others agree with you), and that Tango people are wrong for thinking differently from you. Question those assumptions! This reminds me of a great joke. Two men are arguing and go to their rabbi. The rabbi listens to the 1st guy, and says "You're right." The 2nd guy says "Wait! You haven't heard my side!" The rabbi carefully listens to the 2nd guy, and says "You're right." The rabbi's wife then says, "Hey, wait a minute, they can't both be right!" The rabbi says "You're right." Relating the joke to your situation: You're right -- given certainly assumptions (like saying 90% of men in the USA would agree with me). Tango people are right (given the assumptions their 0.01% of the populace share). Both are right, depending on where you are coming from.
• Another way to think of it: Doing Tango is like going to another country. It has new terms, new social rules, and a type of happiness that is hard to find outside of dance. You can criticize the club. You don't have to join the club. I think you should question, however, saying the club is wrong. BTW, this extends to many things in life. Is the political party opposite your own 100% wrong and evil? Is a pro-X rally wrong because you disagree? This is part of the fun of Tango, it is a like a mini trip to another country. For example, I know more foreign born people from Tango than probably everything else in my life combined. Believe it or not, some of them are the opposite and find the standoffishness and lack of touch in US society is the problem!
• A suggestion: Bundle up all your posts and related answers, and send them to one of the online counseling services. I was having trouble with a relative, I did that, and boy was it helpful! I think it could be very helpful for you to have a neutral, unbiased 3rd party to help you sort through this. You have already written it up via your posts here, so it would be easy.

Wish me luck trying to intersperse comments! I also did much trimming of TNiSD's words.

---

... That said, my GF has been telling me it will be a few years before I learn the close embrace (and actually do it), where I explained that I already have been (in those classes). She responded saying that it's the leader's choice, and that it was 'me' who chose it, but which from what I understand is not the case; that it's the follower's choice.

Here is yet another case of "You're right" and "You're right." My area has instructors who are totally into close embrace and criticize open as not the right way to do Tango. Surprise surprise, they teach their classes open embrace. Several instructors I have seen take years into the curriculum before close embrace is taught, and even then it is a rare class. I'm not surprised she thought classes wouldn't hit close embrace for a while.

Leader's vs. follower's choice: Here is yet another case of "You're right" and "You're right." I have heard arguments in both directions.

I also explained that I am a fast learner, and it'll be a matter of a few months, NOT years to get good enough to be an 'advanced' beginner. The way she said it in the context of the discussion, it was as if she was trying to convince me to not even dance in the close embrace.

Yes, I used to think that, too, when I was a few months in. Skiing, race driving, mathematics, programming, and more, whenever I think "I'm getting this," or even "hey I've got this!" I quickly get a big dose of reality. What? There are whole areas of math I have never even heard about? What? That guy with 1/2 the horsepower beat me? There is some debate on this, but I think dancing in close embrace is more difficult. You have to be more in tune, and there is a greater risk of stepping on the lady. How about questioning your assumptions, and make the starting point your girlfriend is just trying to sincerely help your Tango journey? She probably senses underlying tensions in you, even if you haven't spoken explicitly with her on this topic, so she is trying to be very careful. How about assuming Occam's razor that what she says is as simple as it is stated?

The other thing she said (in a cute way) was that when we go to any Tango, the other attendees would quickly realize I have a life partner. The 'tea leaves' tell me she's making a statement there.

Hmmm, proud to claim you as her boyfriend... Hmmm... What's the problem here? She's happy to "share" you with many other women in dance, but not happy to share the "life partner" part. That should be reassuring to you.

It also seems my GF is now taking a much more 'active interest' in my learning, and even 'who' I'm learning with, and has even poked and prodded a little to know how my class went (when I go without her).

So, learning to 'walk', the basic 8, ochos, ocho cortados, disassociation, etc. is coming together quite well, and I will be going to a Milonga with my GF in a couple weeks to a studio she knows more than the one I'm taking lessons at. We were supposed to go last weekend by it was canx due to Covid. This studio supposedly has people she's more familiar with, and I can tell she wants to 'show me off' to her Tango friends (leaders and followers).

Your girlfriend is in a tough spot. I imagine she can sense the tension in you. She is interested, but you might be putting out discomfort vibes. I can imagine it is difficult for her to strike the right balance. It is 100% normal for Tango couples to want to hear about the other's Tango adventures.

In fact, my GF has a picture of herself doing a leg-wrap with the instructor who puts on that Milonga, and she down-played it. I'm wondering what she'll be saying when other followers do a leg-wrap, close embrace, dancing with their eyes closed, and we're immersed in the moment?

This is my take when I read this: This is worrisome. It smells of revenge, of "I'll show her!" Also, you say she is downplaying the leg wrap. Question your assumptions! Could it be you are overplaying it?

What I expect from my very experienced GF is very simple; since I took the plunge to take-up Tango and am making excellent progress, for her to realize it, and stop 'mapping' her reasons she's in it, and what I will get from it, onto me.

Question your assumptions! Could it be she is merely sharing her joy and hoping you can, too? Could it be she senses your discomfort and is trying show a light at the end of the tunnel? Are her reasons really unrealistic or bad that she hopes you share them?

I was completely willing to go to classes / lessons alone on this journey, but as she found out, my GF has been 'steering' me on which instructors / studios to avoid, which ones she likes better, and has been telling me more about her experiences and reasons for dancing, as if I will (or should) feel the same.

Question your assumptions! When I say: "Oh, you just have to try this!" and my friend doesn't like it, it is not a case of my thinking they should like eating burnt ends with live Blues music. It is my hope they like it, and get enjoyment out of it like I do. My wife and I like doing Tango together. She does not like to do car racing with me. While I had hoped she would like it, it is OK she doesn't.

In a similar vein, it seems great she wants to help with her expertise in your journey. If I'm asked, I definitely have opinions on which instructor is better for beginners, or which instructor is better overall.

As others have stated here and in numerous blogs, Tango is personal and everyone does it for their own reasons. My GF told me she's only in Tango "for a body to dance around" and didn't care about their age, looks, shape, or size, and that she doesn't get the 'rush' or the 'high' many dancers typically get from the release of Oxytocin from great "hugs" and tanda's, something I'll be looking forward to when the time comes. And sadly, given the nature of AT, my first 'tangasm' may come at a time when I'm not dancing with my GF.

Believe it or not, your girlfriend likely realizes this and is OK with it! There have been several discussions here on DF that the best tanda of the night is not necessarily with the significant other, and that's OK.

I can feel the 'addictive' draw to Tango, but unlike others who are fully immersed and it's their main leisure-time activity, I pursue other interests as well. The real draw at this point is the desire to become good through learning (steps/movement, musicality, types, etc.), learn something about myself, make a few friends, and have a good time.

In my area, we have people who come once a year (International Celebration of Tango), a handful of times a year, and the way up to traveling several times a year for Tango. Similarly, there are some people for whom Tango is the totality of their hobbies, free time, and social circle. Others, like me, it is one of several activities I enjoy. You can float to your own involvement level.

Thanks for your kind words, encouragement, and perspective. Some of the others posting in here on the topic of 'relationships, seduction, and sexuality' of AT, have a very biased view of Tango with respect to the topic (and downplay it just like my GF), particularly since they've been dancing for quite some time. I, on the other hand, am very pragmatic and have the ability to see things without bias, so I take everything with a grain of salt, so to speak.

Warning, there is going to be a little tough love in this paragraph! My goal is to hopefully get you thinking along a different path -- in a sense, debating with yourself -- and arrive at a happier destination. Question your assumptions! You bring different biases, not a lack of bias. For instance, I think you have the biases of 90% of men in the USA. I think you have the common bias of high self confidence you are right and others are wrong. I think you have the bias Tango should adopt to you and not vice versa. I don't recall even one sentence where you say "Maybe I need to adjust my thinking on this." I think you have the bias of confirmation bias -- agreeing with things you agree with, and tending to reject things you don't agree with.

Before I do anything in my life where I'm devoting precious time, money, and resources, especially something like AT, I do my homework. One thing I'm discovering through my research are the reasons people take-up Tango and the dynamics of this dance style.

My GF is a classic example of someone who needs the 'hugs' and 'close embrace' of AT; she's a doctor and puts her hands on a lot of people in her professional life, which explains her yearning for the closeness and 'connection' so common in AT in her private life, and has briefly explained that to me (but is down-playing it).

Tango is very public! If your girlfriend goes to a former boyfriend's house to "Do some one-on-one" Tango, that is the time to worry!

No other activity I can think of (that others have mentioned in this thread) has elements that are a part of AT; seduction/flirting (via the cabeceo), the intimate closeness (embrace and connection), and where the participants walk away with immensely pleasurable feelings that are as 'sexual' in nature as it can get without the physical act itself. I've seen it in the eyes of the followers at the practicas and the few milonga's I've attended and can clearly see they're having pleasurable experiences, particularly the followers.

Acting can have people get very close, and act like they are in love. While rarely things do happen between actors and actresses, acting a scene doesn't mean they are flirting or in love, etc. Can actors and actresses enjoy doing a love scene, but not have "as 'sexual' in nature as it can get without the physical act itself"? Yep.

Regarding "as 'sexual' in nature as it can get without the physical act itself": This seems to be an extreme statement. Question your assumptions. Couldn't it be 10%, rather than 90% as your statement implies? Certainly you can appreciate the beauty of a lady you don't know, and it doesn't go further than that. Two Tango dancers can do beautiful moves without it being a proxy or desire for sex.

BTW, some dances and dance groups do things that would be X-rated if they didn't have clothes on. Tango is quite chaste in comparison!

In fact, my GF and I attended a recent practica last week, and she danced a tanda with one of my instructors and was totally immersed. She opened her eyes and looked up at me at one point as she passed by while I was sitting watching the other dancers and their footwork. She was dancing a 3 song tanda in a close embrace, and cut it short on the 3rd tanda, telling the instructor she wanted to continue practicing with me. When she told me that, I said she should have finished (since I know the protocol). Besides he's a great leader/instructor, and she claims she's a little 'rusty' and wants to work on a few minor improvements, especially on her axis, disassociations, and balance.

Nonetheless, I am looking forward to this weekend. I have a group lesson tonight (my GF won't be attending) and a follow-on Milonga (that I attend for a bit as an observer), with a tango boot-camp tomorrow (Sat) and on Sunday, so this will be a weekend devoted to learning and dancing.

I see some hope here -- hopefully this was a little innoculation for you that doing a tanda is not a big deal. I don't think you are at the "should give up" point, and should give yourself some more time and exposure.

Sure, we all have our own biases formed from our life experiences, especially when intimately involved in something we love or passionate about.

But given the fact I'm a newcomer to Tango I haven't formed an opinion to defend it like seasoned veterans do, or have a very subjective view. As an engineer in biotech, you're correct I am analytical, but I have the ability to see both sides of any 'argument' or situation objectively. That said, I use logic versus emotion to formulate opinions (and biases).

If you read the entire context of my post, you'd understand I am not someone who believes someone else's own personal experiences or opinions (i.e. bias of my GF's) at face-value, and have the ability to formulate them on my own.

What sort of bias do you think I have? What about your own?

Remember, you are entering a club, a foreign country, with different rules and conventions than your everyday life might have. You have been presented a wonderful opportunity here, like I was years ago. It was painful at times, but I'm glad I persisted. It was a great journey of self discovery and growth as a person. My hope is you can look back at this (could take a year or two), and open yourself to the great friendships, and dare I say, grand tandas that Tango can provide.

And lastly, AT isn't the only dance I know, but it's clearly the most sensual, presumably from the release of the "feel-good hormone" (i.e. Oxytocin) dancers get from a close embrace, sensual connection, and wonderful tanda.

There are a variety of joys in Tango. Nailing a step you planned 12 music beats in advance is pretty awesome. When the follower makes a "mistake" and you switch to plan B so well she doesn't know that wasn't the plan all along is a great feeling. When a lady (sometimes first timer) raves about how great that dance was, it makes me happy to spread joy. When a lady in class says "You are easy to follow!" I like that marker on my progress. When a lady says "Oh, do that again!" I can't help but smile. Wondering at how on earth could you do a Vulcan mind meld to the point the follower is following you perfectly and effortlessly is an amazement I enjoy. When your dance partner is a bit afraid and tense, and you feel the tension drain away, you think "Wow, I just made the world a bit better a place for someone." When you usually lead and try following, and realize it is really hard, that is fun, too. When you try following, and the world goes away, you have that Vulcan mind meld, it's just music and motion, you understand better why women enjoy Tango so much (FWIW I think it is easier to "get into the zone" as a follower rather than a leader).

I don't want to get into the middle of the rude debate, but agree things that are reasonably considered rude went both directions. Just a thought (for everyone): Instead of defending yourself, step outside of yourself and accept the other person was offended, and apologize.

 

[itwillhappen]

As others have stated here and in numerous blogs, Tango is personal and everyone does it for their own reasons. My GF told me she's only in Tango "for a body to dance around" and didn't care about their age, looks, shape, or size, and that she doesn't get the 'rush' or the 'high' many dancers typically get from the release of Oxytocin from great "hugs" and tanda's, something I'll be looking forward to when the time comes. And sadly, given the nature of AT, my first 'tangasm' may come at a time when I'm not dancing with my GF.

I see it as a fact that a pleasant flow, be it with slow dancing, slow running or slow sex, is often associated with the release of Oxytocin. And I also see it as a fact that some of the dancers are looking for this state, while others are not.

It only becomes relevant when you judge it, especially if it is aimed at influencing the behavior of others. At that point one should also be aware of the fact that humans on some levels are little more than great apes. We are all programmed in our behavior, in the use of our resources, so that our genetic DNA is passed on. Also by controlling with whom we have sex, in the case of men e.g. to control whether childs really have our DNA, in case of women that someone takes care for the childs. And It doesn't matter whether this nowadays is a useful behavior or not.

These are relatively clear facts, helpful or not. In addition, one can have opinions ... for example why is it so important to men who their wife dances with, women who their husband dances with, and how they do that? Why do we have the concept of a spouse or not? And why do we invent terms like "tangasm"? It is actually clear that normally our life partner will not be the best dance partner of all. Otherwise we should review our criteria.

 

[Gssh]

At that point one should also be aware of the fact that humans on some levels are little more than great apes. We are all programmed in our behavior, in the use of our resources, so that our genetic DNA is passed on.

If we go that direction i think that it is important to note that dance / coordinated movement is mostly related with group cohesion / displays / pack hunting. As humans we are endurance pack hunters (very different from most other great apes, more similar to canines (which is why we tend to get along)), and that works by following and harassing a preferably weak prey in a coordinated group for a long time till it gives up (which is why human mobs are so dangerous - we love being with friends and stomp on designated victims - two people fighting is usually a within-group social game where probably nobody gets hurt too badly, 3 vs 1 (or the wrong kind of bystander) can move things into our hunting patterns). Early dancing was for solidifying groups, and showing off to other groups.

But we don't really live in an environment where we hunt like this, and a lot of civilization/society is about telling people stories about why and how they should behave in certain ways. Human survival strategy as a species is less about any individuals DNA, but "creating/being part of a successful pack", and we have a lot of evolutionary infrastructure devoted to help mold ourselves and others into whatever shape seems to be useful.

I am more interested in the question why we tell each other and ourselves some stories about tango, and not others. Why do we talk about risks of dancing with anybody besides our spouse in tango, and about how touching dancing with our parents and parents-in-law is at weddings? Why are medieval mixed gender dances (and a lot of folk dances) all about swapping partners? Why are square dances so concerned that every couple gets to hang out and dance with each of the other couples? If partner dance is so socially destabilizing that it is crucial to make sure that ones spouse does not dance with the wrong people why did it work as mainstream entertainment and as the focus of the social life for so long?

 

[Rabbit]

I am more interested in the question why we tell each other and ourselves some stories about tango, and not others.

The question is which narrative we are buying and selling - group dance as a social bonding ritual, partner dance as a courtship/mating ritual, dance in general as a form of artistic expression, a practice of physical form, or other more esoteric interpretations. And we will tell the stories that follow the narratives that resonate with us, personally. You will talk about losing yourself to the ronda and I will talk about the connection with my partner and how we found a movement that perfectly fit the music that one time. And someone else will talk about how it is like meditation.

In the popular consciousness, tango is associated with courtship/mating ritual and folk dance with social bonding (and ballroom, for some odd reason, with competitions) because that's how they are generally marketed.

 

[opendoor]

..In the popular consciousness, tango is associated with..

But we do not jump boundlessly all over each other! Tango is ritualized and thus the most prudish dance I know. Folk dances are highly choreographed, do you know what that implies? All folk dance events that I attended always ended in wild orgies after the official part.

 

[Rabbit]

But we do not jump boundlessly all over each other!

I know a lot of people that started relationships from within the tango scene. No idea about what happens in folk

 

[opendoor]

..lot of people that started relationships from within the...

I did, as well! But it always started off the the dance floor. Thats the difference.

 

[itwillhappen]

But we don't really live in an environment where we hunt like this, and a lot of civilization/society is about telling people stories about why and how they should behave in certain ways. Human survival strategy as a species is less about any individuals DNA, but "creating/being part of a successful pack", and we have a lot of evolutionary infrastructure devoted to help mold ourselves and others into whatever shape seems to be useful.

The type of social interaction, the type of food procurement are of course important learned skills and that have always changed relatively quickly. But looking onto underlying and much more permanent biological predispositions, only those who have also been inherited prevailed, which is what made our sexual behavior so important. Our current moral concepts of monogamy are very flexible compared to this.

 

[itwillhappen]

I did, as well! But it always started off the the dance floor. Thats the difference.

All folk dance events that you attended always ended in wild orgies after the official part on the dance floor? I can barely get the images in my head under control. Many people in that community will miss you!

 

[Gssh]

Our current moral concepts of monogamy are very flexible compared to this.

The majority of societies seem to be more flexible (at least in one direction). 80% are non-monogamous, with the majority (50%) going for mild polygyny (less than 20% of a society is actually polygyneous, but it is accepted). Pure monogamy is overall somewhat of an outlier (though not as much as polyandry - 1%). (based on the 186 societies in the standard cross cultural sample). Some systems of serial monogamy seem to be really prevalent. Humans seems to be really more into extended close kin networks than monogamous couples to ensure propagation of genes.

 

[itwillhappen]

Humans seems to be really more into extended close kin networks than monogamous couples to ensure propagation of genes.

This behavior started, as far as I know, only emerged with the sedentary agriculture. I would suspect that it is more about the passing on of places and goods to the next generation than about the genes.